Aiha Or Imha

[goldens]

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU ALL HEAR OF MANY CASES OF AUTOIMMUNE HEMOLYLETIC ANEMIA, ALSO CALLED IMMUNE MEDIATED ANEMIA, DOWN THERE? WHEN MY JUST TURNED 4 YEAR OLD GOLDEN RETRIEVER, HUNTER, AS DIAGNOSED WITH IT OCT. 9, 2003, I HAD NEVER HEARD OF IT. MY VET SAID HE ONLY SAW ONE CASE EVERY 1 TO 1 1/2 YEARS. MY RESEARCH SHOWED THAT 50% OF ALL DOGS DIE WITHIN A WEEK OF DIAGNOSIS, ANOTHER 30% WITHIN A MONTH. MY HUNTER DIED 8 DAYS AFTER DIAGNOSIS.

WE KNOW IT WAS THE PROHEART6 THAT BROUGHT HIS ON, AND THRU FORUMS AND POSTS, I LOCATED/AND/OR WAS LOCATED BY ABOUT 45 OTHERS WHOSE DOGS DEVELOPED AIHA FOLLOWING PROHEART 6 INJECTION. ONLY 2 HAD SURVIVED.

WELL, NOW MY VET IS SEEING SEVERAL CASES A YEAR. ON THE FORUMS I BELONG TO. WE KEEP GETTING MEMEBERS LOOKING FOR ANSWERS AS THEIR DOG HAS DEVELOPED THIS DISEASE, AND I EVEN BELONG TO ONE GROUP WHERE EVERY SINGLE MEMBER HAS EITHER LOST A DOG TO IT, HAS A DOG FIGHTING FOR IT'S LIFE AT THE MOMENT OR IS IN REMISSION.

MOST OF US, MAYBE ALL OF US, FEEL OUR DOGS ARE GETTING TO MANY VACCINATIONS. THEY GET ONE THAT IS A COMBO OF ABOUT 4 OR 5 THINGS, THEN PARVO, LYME, LEPTO, RABIES. AND MONTHLY HEARTWORM PILLS, FLEA/TICK TOPICALS, ETC. HECK, THEY EVEN HAVE COME UP WITHA VACCINE TO PREVENT TARTAR ON THE DOGS' TEETH.

I DO NOT THINK YOUR DOG GETS NEAR AS MANY VAX AS OURS DO--EXCEEPT SOMEOF US HAVE PUT A HALT TO IT--AND I WAS WONDERING IF AIHA IS AS BAD DOWN THERE AS IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS STARTING TO BE HERE. ALSO LOOKS LIKE THERE IS A LOT IN ENGLAND JUDGING BY THE BRITS ON THAT AIAHA FORUM.

[dogbesotted]

I think there is a variety of causes of immune mediated diseases.. but over vaccination certainly has a role there. My dog Morris developed Immune mediated thrombocytopenia 4 days after his vaccination booster....... Morris was my learning dog.. i now minimally vaccinate, mainly raw feed etc etc and question everything

helen

[Danois]

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CIMDAsupport/

Consider joining this Yahoo User Group. CIMDA is Canine Immune Mediate Diseases (something).

My dane Angs was diagnosed with IMPA (polyarthritis) at just over 12 months of age however had been displaying symptoms from at least 5-6 months of age which my previous vets thought was HDD or something like that but something did not sit right with me and I found a new vet who diagnosed it and we started treatment. This was cortisone and later, azo something.

We held him stable on a very low dose of cortisone for 9 months and then he 'crashed' for want of a better word. He was diagnosed with pancreatitis so we had to back off the cortisone. A further blood test 2 days later showed that he had developed IMHA which we think the cortisone had suppresed but came through given the opportunity.

I had him PTS the same day.

My vet said his was not vaccine related and we did not use the Proheart injection.

[Erny]

What are the early symptoms of this? Or are the symptoms too diverse and obtuse from one case to another?

Edited March 8, 2009 by Erny

[Danois]

erny - do you mean IMHA or IMPA?

With the IMPA Angs had an ongoing problem with lameness which seemed to shift and then settled into one rear hock predominately - his hock was swollen with fluid there. The fluid would not grow anything in a culture but had a white blood cell count through the roof from memory. His bloods came back with high counts too. Other than that he was super skinny. He had skin problems and seemed to be grain intolerant.

https://www.vetconnect.com.au/5min/data/09620963.htm

This is good info on IMPA

IMHA:

https://www.vetconnect.com.au/5min/data/03440345.htm

[Bisart Dobes]

So very sorry for your loss.

About 6 years ago our vet offered us this injection for our dogs instead of the monthly tablet we were giving. After hearing his sales pitch I said ok we would give it a go and see how it goes - give it to all three of them. He said he couldn't give it to our puppy (now 6 1/2) because it wasn't safe enough to give to a dog under 12 months. Fine I said don't give it to any of them - if its not safe enough for her then the others certainly aren't getting it. Thankfully he may have saved us alot of grief and I have never considered it since - I have read up on the research and websites that are available and have read so many negatives.

I really try to ensure our dogs are treated as naturally as possible - they do get vaccinated (as little as I can get away with) (C3 not C5 as the KK Vacc doesn't work anyway) and they get wormed and heartworm as we are in a heartworm area - they get a natural diet and homeopaths / natropaths treatment and we really never have sick dogs. I too question everything and never let vets talk me into anything (we have a great vet now).

[Erny]

Thank you for the links Danois. I was interested in both IMHA and IMPA.

[goldens]

AIHA CAN COME ON GRADUALY OR RAPID, APPARENTLY. ON THE MORNING OF OCT. 9, 2003, I WAS CHECKING TEETH TO SEE IF ANY DENTALS WERE NEEDED, ETC, AND I SAW HUNTER'S GUMS WERE PALE. MY FIRST THOUGHT WA HOOK WORMS. I HAD SEEN PALE GUMS WITH HOOK WORMS IN PUPPIES BACK WHEN I WAS A KID....IN THE STONE AGE. I CALLED AND MADE AN APPOINTMENT TO GET HIM IN TO SEE THE VET LATER THAT MORNING. A SHORT TIME LATER I WAS ON THE PATIO AND HE "WENT" JUST OFF THE PATIO INSTEAD OF AT THE BACK FENCE AND I NOTED HIS URINE WAS RUSTY COLORED BEFORE GOING TO THE VET I TOOK HIM FOR A SHORT WALK AND GOT A URINE SAMPLE.

WHEN WE GOT TO THE VETS, HIS TEMP WAS A LITTLE OVER 103---NORMAL BEING ABOUT 101 FOR HIM. HE HAD ALSO LOST 9 POUNDS SINCE THE INJECTION EVEN THO HE HAD EATEN NORMAL HE WAS LONG, TALL, AND HAD SUCH LNG FUR, THICK UNDERCOAT, THE WEIGHT LOSS WAS NOT REALY NOTICEABLE. HIS HCT WAS 20, NORMAL FOR HIM WAS 53. HE HAD NEVER HAD A SICK DAY SINCE WE GOT HIM AT 8 WEEKS OF AGE. HE WAS THE FIRST ONE OF MY 4 TO GET THE PROHEART6 AND IT ENDED UP KILLING HIM.

IT SEEMS LIKE MOST OF THOSE OPN THE AIHA FORUM ANDTHE ONES ON MY MULTIPLE OTHER FORUMS DID NOT NOTICE ANYTHING WRONG UNTIL THEIR DOG JUST COLLAPSED. IN HIND SIGHT SOME OF US NOTED LITTLE THINGS THAT DID NOT MEAN MUCH ALONE. LIKE HUNTER HAD TRIED HIS ENTIRE LIFE TO CATCHSQUIRRELS THE WAY OUR OLDER GOLDEN BUCK DID. BUT HE NEVER MANAGED AS HE ALWAYS TORE ACROSS THE YARD BEFORE THE SQUIRREL GOT DOWN TO THE GROUND. HOWEVER FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF WEEKS HAD NOTICED HE SAT ON THE PATIO WATCHING THE SQUIRRELS RATHER THAN RUNNING TO THE TREE WHEN HE SAW THEM AND I FIGURED HE HAD LEARNED FROM BUCK HOW TO STALK THEM. ALSO HE WOULD BRING HIS BALL FOR US TO THROW, BUT IF ONE OF THE OTHER DOGS GOT A FASTER TAKE OFF, HE DID NOT GO AFTER IT. HIS LITTERMATE SISTER HAD ALWAYS DONE THIS AND WE THOUGHT HE HAD LEARNED FROM HER THAT FIRST OFF THE BLOCK GETS THE BALL. LATER WE REALIZED THAT THE AIHA HAD SET IN AND WAS STARTING TO TAKE IT'S TOLL.

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

PROHEART6 WAS PULLED FROM THE MARKET HERE SEPT. 3, 2004,A LITTLE MORE THAN 10 MONTHS AFTER HUNTER'S DEATH BECAUSE OF THEHIGH RATE OF DEATHS AND ADVERSE REACTIONS. IT KILLED MORE DOGS IN THE 3 YEARS IT WAS ON THE MARKET THAN ALL OTHERS COMBINED AND SOME HAD BEEN OUT 25 YEARS. IT WAS ALLOWED BACK LAST SUMMER, BUT WITH A TON OF WARNNGS ON THE LABEL, LIKE NOT TO GIVE WITHIN A MONTH OF ANY VACCINATION, BE GIVEN CAREFULLY TO DOGS WITH ALLERGIES, EVEN FOOD ALLERGIES. NOT TO BE GIVEN TO DOGS THAT ARE UNDERWEIGT OR ILL, USED CREFULLY WITH DOGS OVER 7, ETC, ETC. THEY SAY IT HAS BEEN REFORMULATED AND THE "RESIDUE SUSPECTED OF CAUSING SOME REACTIONS LAST TIME HAS BEEN REMOVED." YET LAST TIME THEY SWORE UP AND DOWN THEIR PRODUCT WAS NOT CAUSING ALL THESE REACTIONS AND DEATHSS, BUT OUR FDA, UPON GETTING SO MANY REPORTS OF THE REACTIONS AND DEATHS DID NOT AGREE WITH THEM. OH, ALSO, THE VETS NOW HAVE TO"TAKE A CLASS" ON THE NET BEFOE THEY CAN GET PRHEART6 FROM FROT DODGE.

IT SCARES ME TO THINK THAT THE PROHEART12 USED DOWN THERE IS 3 TIMES THE STRENGH AS THE PROHEART6 HERE. AND THAT IS THEIR OWN WORDS IN THE MEETING TO TRY TO GET IT BACK ON THE MARKET ON JAN. 31, 2005. THE FDA TURNED THEM DOWN AND TOLD THEM MORE RESEARCH WAS NEEDED. IT IS BACK NOW WITH ALL THE WARNINGS AND I DON'T KNOW A SINGLE PERSON IN PERSON OR ON ANY OF AMERICAN DOG FORUM WHO WLL USE IT. IT IS NOT ADVERTISED ONTV LIKE IT WAS THE FIRST TIME EITHER. OH, BY THE WAY, THE FDA HAD THEM MAKE 3 LAEL CHANGE THE FIRST TIME IT WAS OUT. THE 2ED ONE INCLUDED AIHA AS AN ADVERSE REACTION AND THE 3RD CHANGE WAS MADE THE DAY MY HUNTER GOT HIS FATAL INJECTION...AN DEATH WAS ADDED TAT TIME.

HERE IN SO MANY STATES WE HAVE NO CHOICE. WE HAVE MOSQUITOES YEAR ROUND AND WE HAVE TO GIVE THE HEARTWORM PROTECTION YEAR AROUND. IN SOME OF THE NOTRHERN STATES WHERE THEY DO REALLY HAVE WINTER, MANY ELECT NOT TO GIVE IT DURING THE WINTER. HERE ON THE TEXAS COAST I HAVE NO CHOICE. HOWEVER I GO EASY ON THE FLEA/TICK STUFF AND I AVOID AS MANY VACCINES AS POSSIBLE. AND THE ONES I D USE ARE SPACED OUT AND MANY ARE GIVEN EVERY 3 YERS INSTEAD OF EVERY YEAR. UNLESS YOU HAVE HAD A DOG WITH AIHA YOU CAN NOT IMAGINE HOW HORRIBLE (AND EXPENISIVE DISEASE IT IS. SME AN NOT AFFORD TO KEEP PAYING FOR THE HIGH DOLLAR DRUGS, THE TRANSFUSIONS (MY HUNTER HAD 2 TRANSFUSIONS OF 2 UNTIS OF BLOOD EACH TIME IN THE 8 DAYS IN ICU BECAUSE HIS SPLEEN WAS KILLING ALL HIS RED CELLS

THIS IS MY HUNTER AND MY OLDEST SON.

[alanglen]

We don't have Proheart 6 here in Australia, we have proheart SR 12, yes more drug but slow release, it has its advantages and disadvantages.

[goldens]

Oh yeah, I know about the sr12. Many from down there came to groups like doghealth2 looking for answers when they lost their dog after the injection. First one I had contact was actually a guy from Sydney who almost lost his Maltese, his "best mate" as he called the little guy.

Here, vets and dog owners reported the reaction or death directly to the FDA. You send in copies of the complete records of the dog. We that had necropsy done also sent that report along also. The FDA vets compile the records and when they see patterns of several hundred dogs developing AIHA or gastric problems etc (healthy dogs pre Porhear6 injections or whatever drug) then they investigate and will tell the maker to add those as adverse reactions to the warning label. In the case of ProHeart6, AIHA was added to the 2ed label change, death was added to the 3rd and last before the FDA had them pull it. Proheart6 was the VERY FIRST ANIMAL MEDICATION/DRUG TO EVER BE PULLED FROM THE MARKET.

It was pulled Sept. 3, 2004 and on Jan. 31, 2005 there was a big hearing about beinging it bac onto the market. Several of the ones I have been in contact all these years attened, and hundreds of us who could not attend sent our dog/dogs stories ahead of tim and of the 15 member FDA panel got copies of our stories. The one there got to tell their stories. The maker showed up loaded with their people who all told how great it was, etc, I have read the entire 300 page transscript. It can be found at http://www.dogsadversereactions.com

According to that transcript, D. Rami Cobb of Fort Dodge said the dosage used in the Proheart SR 12 was 3 times the strenght of that used in ProHeart 6. But they did not have reports of reations and deaths from down there.

When asked if any reports were investigated the same way, she said yes. But according to theguy in Sydney and many others, that is not so. Down there you report to the governemnt and they in turn turn it over to the mnufacture to investigate.....whivh in my opinion is like letting the fox investigate the henhouse raid. The government agency does not investigate. Here our governemnt agency the FDA does investigate.

Where our dose is spread out (time release) over 6 months, your triple dose is time released over 12 months. Oh, for the record, several batches that hit the market a couple of months before hunter got his fatal dose was recalled due to the time release part not working properly. That is all we could find out Do not know if they wre all releasing at once, not releasing at all, releasing at the wrongtime. This can also be found at the above listed site. Laurryn gets lost of copies of letters, orders, etc, with the Freedom Of Information Act.

I do know any many dogs had no problem with it, but when more diein 3 years from it than from all others combined, some which had been out 25 years, it just does not seem logica to me to use it when all others are much safer.

[Tassie]

Thank you for the links Danois. I was interested in both IMHA and IMPA.

Erny, I lost my 12 and half year old BC to IMHA in 2001. He had no symptoms, although a blood test earlier in the year, had showed rather low (but not anaemic) red cell count. In retrospect, I should have paid more attention to that, but since the dog ws aparently active and healthy, there seemed no need to worry. It would have been several months later that Sam, who had done a double UD trial apparently very happily on the Sunday, began to appear a little off on the Tuesday, then quite unwell on the Wednesday and very, very poorly on the Thursday - at which time his PCV had dropped to about 18 (should be 36). Vet diagnosed IMHA, but since the only treatment is very aggressive immune supression (or transfusion if available, followed by immune suppression, she wanted to get the diagnosis confirmed by a pathologist. Unfortunately, Sam died the next morning, with sever jaundice, and total organ failure.

He had never had any h/w injection (in fact had not been treated with any h.w preventative. His last vaccination was 6 months earlier, so it appears that in his case the IMHA had no easily detected cause - couls have been a spleen tumour or something like that.

I now pay attention and seek vet help if my dogs are off for now good reason, and if in doubt, would always get blood tests, and folow up any odd readings.

That said, although I know of some dogs who have been successfully treated, it is reallyhard on the dogs, and I'm not sure what I would do if it ever happened again.

Edited because I accidentally hit the send button too soon.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Tassie

[Erny]

Oh wow ... Tassie. Really sorry for your loss and of course for Golden's loss and anyone elses, for that matter .

You know, with all these things, sometimes I feel torn between deciding if I am paranoid or realistic. It really is so hard, if not impossible, to know without the power of hindsight and by then it is usually too late.

[Tassie]

Oh wow ... Tassie. Really sorry for your loss and of course for Golden's loss and anyone elses, for that matter .

You know, with all these things, sometimes I feel torn between deciding if I am paranoid or realistic. It really is so hard, if not impossible, to know without the power of hindsight and by then it is usually too late.

Thanks Erny. Yes, exactly so. My vet knows me pretty well now, and thankfully is prepared to put up with my paranoia. I'll quite often start a consult with "I'm probably wasting your time, but ......)

[oakway]

Golden's, please do not use capitals. It is considered very rude and implies that you are yelling. Capitals are usually used to emphasize words.

Cheers.

[InspectorRex]

sorry for your losses

As I own an Ivermectin sensitive breed( Rough Collies) and had them DNA Tested to confirm they are Affected the only heartworm Prevenative I use is DIMMITROL DAILY tablets.Much cheaper than all the other stuff and they are only geeting 1 tablet daily with their main meal.

I have seen the dogs that have reacted even to Heartgard etc. My own Collie back in 1989 vomitted up blood after one tablet.

As for Vaccinations I use the NOBIVAC 3 yearly vaccine for Distemper/Parvo/Hepatitis and Nobivac Intranasal KC annually.

My girls reacted to the old C5( huge lumps at the injection site) so I did my research and Nobivac was the choice .

I also will use alternative treatments is I think it it warranted

[goldens]

Golden's, please do not use capitals. It is considered very rude and implies that you are yelling. Capitals are usually used to emphasize words.

Cheers.

I am sorry. I only use them so I can read as I type so I can try to see my typos and correct them. See, i have rheum,atoid arthritis and my fingers do not work great, so i do make lots of typos as sometimes my fingers do not hit the keys hard enough to print or the space bar hard enough to space

but my main problem is vision. I am legally blind in left eye and not great vision in right eye---diabetes. plus I have cataracts. In order to read what I am typing ow, my face has to be about 12 inc hes from the screen and wih the way my creen is positioed from the key board due to the type desk I have, I have tp lean way o the right to see it, yet my hands and arms have to go left to type When I type a post here, the print is just so small and light I have such a hard time reading. I can get close to the screen to read posts, just have so much trouble typing and reading one at the same time.

I have had lazer surgery on left eye--that did not work. I had injection under the eyeball---that did not work. Fioanlly in Nov. I had injection straight into eyeball and that has helped the vision in my left eye a little. I can not read the newspaper except for titles without a magnifying glass, nor can I read magazines, etc. I use to love to read and have books given to me that I have not been able to read---I did not tell people how bad my vision was for a good while. I also had to give up putting jigsw puzzles together.

He wanted to work on my left eye alone since it was the worst, in case something went wrong and i totally lost vision in the eye worked on. I have no idea when he will okay cataract surgery. He wants to get all the swelling and leakage in the eyeballs stopped before cataract surgery.

I did not mean to appear to be yellng, just wanted to try to correct my typos.

[goldens]

Oh wow ... Tassie. Really sorry for your loss and of course for Golden's loss and anyone elses, for that matter .

You know, with all these things, sometimes I feel torn between deciding if I am paranoid or realistic. It really is so hard, if not impossible, to know without the power of hindsight and by then it is usually too late.

Thanks Erny. Yes, exactly so. My vet knows me pretty well now, and thankfully is prepared to put up with my paranoia. I'll quite often start a consult with "I'm probably wasting your time, but ......)

I know what you mean about being a little paranoid. Ask any member of theAIHA forum and they will tell you they watch their dogs like a hawk. Always checking gums to make sure they are real pink, worrying if the dog sleeps a few minutes more this day than than usual, refused to at the full meal, meal.

I would look at the gums of my other dogs and think "Gee, Honey's gums do not look as pink as KayCee's" and get all upset. I am not quite as bad now, but i swear, I paid for about 1/2 of my vets clinci with my visits. If one of mine sneezed twice or limped two steps, i had him/her in. AIHA is such a horrible disease a roller coaster ride as descrbd on the AIHA forum. One day the dog is doing well, the next day he has crashed and is in grave condition. And since there is no cure only remissin, you can not let down your guard for one second. Also, all whose dogs are in remission have refused to allow their dogs to have another vax. Many believe it was a vax that brought it on.

[Erny]

Goldens - sorry for the trouble you are having with your sight and for your arthritis. It must prove very frustrating. I completely understand now why you type in caps although unless and until everyone on the board knows you (and there will always be new people coming in), they will think you're yelling. Why not put a "notice" as your signature to the effect that you type in caps due to a sight impairment, not because you're yelling. That way people won't take it as such and you won't be left explaining all the time .

[puglvr]

I had a pug girl come down with suspected AIHA at eight months. tests proved inconclusive but they treated as such. She had to have a blood transfusion her blood count was so low. She is 5 now, has had a perfectly healthy litter, has never relapsed (touch wood) and has never been revaccinated (so she only ever had her baby vaccs.)

[Danois]

I think it was Fiery Di who had a dog with IMHA too. Was it Ruby?