My Fear Aggressive Dog

[Steve K9Pro]

D: Hmm. Are you saying that this is directed at me or at other dogs?

K9: I am not saying really, I haven't seen your dog to say.

I work hard on leadership in our home and on our walks.

At home she follows all commands I give to her and is mindful of boundaries that I have set. NO sign of exerting dominance- even over my 2 young children.

K9: certain temperament types will never show dominance to people but will to other dogs.

When walking she is on high alert to her surroundings. She will walk to heel if directed and her "free" walking (looselead) is getting better, but if we come across a dog she is uncertain of she loses her focus on me entirely and will snarl and lunge towards it til she chokes herself.

K9: It sounds like your playing what I call "the see what happens game". This only ever turns out good or bad, so at best what your doing would have only a 50% success rate, yes?

D: Does this fit with the rank aggression? I wouldve thought it was classic fear aggression?

K9: none of the symptoms you describe are what I am talking about. I was just commenting that many of your posts paint the picture of a rank dog not a defensive dog, but, I haven't seen your dog, worked with her or anything so it is just a hunch.

A lot of people put a lot of faith in my hunches though & as I said, the programs - treatments & therapies for each of these aggression styles is totally opposite.

I wish you all the best.

[MonElite]

deelee - wasnt your dog diagnosed by a behaviourist as a fear agressive dog? Or am I missing some info here?

Of course there is room for a missdiagnose however I do know your trainer and trust him with his judgement. What did he say?

[dee lee]

Im sorry K9 but I find your response rather ambiguous and confusing. :rolleyes:

deelee - wasnt your dog diagnosed by a behaviourist as a fear agressive dog? Or am I missing some info here?

Of course there is room for a missdiagnose however I do know your trainer and trust him with his judgement. What did he say?

Yes, he felt she was fear aggressive- the ol' get the other dog before he gets me routine which I am in total agreeance with.

He has seen my leadership skills and witnessed her behaviour first hand with her nemisis down the road.

He also witnessed my response at the time (terror!!) and gave me advice based on what he felt I could cope with in those circumstances.

It has been management of the dog's issues combined with our home environment.

Now that I am more confident (thanks to his coaching) I was looking for other people's experiences on how they have stopped the actual acting out.

I think yet again I was looking for a magic bullet.

[MonElite]

Im my case the tools such as a prong collar and ecollar gave me confidence.

[Steve K9Pro]

Im sorry K9 but I find your response rather ambiguous and confusing. :rolleyes:

K9: Its pretty straight forward;

It sounds to me, from your posts only, that your dog may not be fear aggressive.

If I am right & your treating fear aggression in a dog with rank aggression the problem will only worsen.

deelee - wasnt your dog diagnosed by a behaviourist as a fear agressive dog? Or am I missing some info here?

Of course there is room for a missdiagnose however I do know your trainer and trust him with his judgement. What did he say?

Yes, he felt she was fear aggressive- the ol' get the other dog before he gets me routine which I am in total agreeance with.

He has seen my leadership skills and witnessed her behaviour first hand with her nemisis down the road.

He also witnessed my response at the time (terror!!) and gave me advice based on what he felt I could cope with in those circumstances.

It has been management of the dog's issues combined with our home environment.

Now that I am more confident (thanks to his coaching) I was looking for other people's experiences on how they have stopped the actual acting out.

K9: If you have had a qualified behaviourist assess your dog & you have a program to follow, stick with that if you feel this person is correct.

Just so you know though, the offence is the best defence is common in fear aggressive dogs.

But, being offensive is also the action of a rank dog.

Aggression is not as simple as many forms of dog training, it can be quite in depth & have many layers of different types of aggression to unravel.

These need to be teased out & dealt with.

I hope this makes it more clear for you.

Edited March 4, 2009 by K9 Force

[huski]

I think yet again I was looking for a magic bullet. :rolleyes:

Deelee, I don't think there is anything unreasonable about wanting to see how you can better manage her or improve her behaviour around other dogs!

You obviously want to do what is best for her and it sounds like you have put a lot of work into her already, and are willing to continue to do so, I think that's wonderful! There are many people out there that put difficult dogs in the too hard basket, you should be proud of yourself for positive changes you've made to her behaviour so far

Edited March 4, 2009 by huski

[MonElite]

Hey deelee this could be your magic bullet

if she did not meet your goals & you don't want her that would be your choice.

ONLY KIDDING!!!!! or will you just open that door "accidentally" one day? :rolleyes:

Ill help Ruths Trixie out the door too

Jokes girls jokes, I know you love them!!! But please take Divani with you too :p

Edited March 4, 2009 by MonElite

[dee lee]

Hey deelee this could be your magic bullet

if she did not meet your goals & you don't want her that would be your choice.

ONLY KIDDING!!!!! or will you just open that door "accidentally" one day? :rolleyes:

Ill help Ruths Trixie out the door too :p

Jokes girls jokes, I know you love them!!! But please take Divani with you too ;)

Shhh! We agreed never to mention that!!!!

Deelee, I don't think there is anything unreasonable about wanting to see how you can better manage her or improve her behaviour around other dogs!

You obviously want to do what is best for her and it sounds like you have put a lot of work into her already, and are willing to continue to do so, I think that's wonderful! There are many people out there that put difficult dogs in the too hard basket, you should be proud of yourself for positive changes you've made to her behaviour so far :D

Thanks Huski!

Edited March 4, 2009 by ✽deelee

[MonElite]

Shhh! We agreed never to mention that!!!! :rolleyes:

I cant remember that !! I was under influence that night. In fact I thought we are going to put a subject up to see if there is more sharing the feeling

[dee lee]

Shhh! We agreed never to mention that!!!! :rolleyes:

I cant remember that !! I was under influence that night. In fact I thought we are going to put a subject up to see if there is more sharing the feeling

You go first!!

Actually I shouldnt dare you!!! :p

[MonElite]

Nathan would have no hessitations in helping us :rolleyes:

[JulesP]

I go feral about people rehoming dogs. If deelee did so I would not go feral. Just saying. You and your stories are actually one of the things that have changed my mind on this topic. I don't want you to feel bad that I feel like this.

As for wanting your dog to run around in dog parks, heaps of us don't go to offlead parks. Bloody dangerous places if you ask me. Plus I want to be the source of fun for my dogs.

I agree with K9 about looking at the positives. Some things that I read people getting stressed about don't bother me at all or I turn it into a positive.

[dee lee]

I go feral about people rehoming dogs. If deelee did so I would not go feral. Just saying. You and your stories are actually one of the things that have changed my mind on this topic. I don't want you to feel bad that I feel like this.

I know what you mean- when we got Evie the foster carer told me she had already been "sent back" by another family.

I was scandalised- how heartless, I thought! How pathetic to give up on such a lovely dog! They obviously didnt deserve to own a dog.

This was why, when quickly it became apparent that she was not a good fit with my family, I did not "send her back".

In retrospect I have had cause to regret that, but as much as I might entertain the thought of rehoming frequently, I simply dont think I could do it. The idea of it breaks my heart. Mind you, I think I'd have a hard time finding a taker for her now- but perhaps if i had done it earlier she may have found a home better equipped to deal with her. She certainly has not been a dog for an inexperienced trainer such as myself.

So yes, I understand what you are saying- obviously I too am a lot more understanding of people who want to rehome these days.

ETA: Just so I dont always end on a sad note I will add the positives too : She is a lovely dog to live with- she rarely barks, always does as I tell her, will happily stay at home with a bone if we go out, doesnt get up on furniture and LOVES us all SO much. Pretty damn good really.

Now if only she would stop trying to rip the throats out of passing dogs...

Edited March 4, 2009 by ✽deelee

[JulesP]

Ok let's look at this from a different angle. What is it about her wanting to rip other dogs throats out that bothers you?? Are you embarrassed? Are you worried that you will not be able to hold her? Do you think that she might do damage if she does get away?

I want to help you feel better about it

[RL1]

Another recommendation for K9 Force from me too. He was the only trainer out of about 5 or 6 that knew what he was talking about concerning my dog with aggression ( and didn't recommend getting rid of the dog ). No miracles here, but a definite improvement in handling the dog.

[dee lee]

Ok let's look at this from a different angle. What is it about her wanting to rip other dogs throats out that bothers you?? Are you embarrassed? Are you worried that you will not be able to hold her? Do you think that she might do damage if she does get away?

I want to help you feel better about it

Thanks.

Well it is embarrassing thats true, but I can live with that.

These days I'm 100% confident I can hold her, and that she will not get away. Im not sure if she would actually do damage, in all her altercations she has never drawn blood. Im not keen to test this though.

At one point I was afraid of actually getting bitten myself as she initially began to show some redirected aggression but following my trainer's specific advice on this I dealt with this and consequently her behaviour improved- her outbursts have lessened and she is more mindful of me quicker now.

Now that you have made me think, its a tough question .

Ok, firstly its a very stressful way to walk, watching her alertness, waiting for that potential explosion and trying to avoid getting stressed myself. I would like to enjoy walking.

Also, I feel that in her snarling and lungeing it expresses her fear and I am frustrated that despite my best efforts I cant seem to prevent this level of anxiety that she is feeling.

Oh and another BIG reason is that I would like to be able to walk her with my kids and that is very difficult as my eldest daughter gets terrified when she sees another dog now in anticipation of our dog's behaviour.

[MonElite]

I think you are your dogs half the problem.

if you are stressed your dog feels stressed and becomes reactive.

Why dont you take her for a walk somewhere where there are no dogs and actually enjoy walking with her.

It might actually involve getting in the car to take her somewhere, but I think it would help.

hey even Ruthless let Trixie off lead with me

[JulesP]

Have you tried walking her with a muzzle on. That will reduce your worry that she might do damage.

Would be interesting to see what happens if you aren't tense when a dog appears.

[Quickasyoucan]

Ok let's look at this from a different angle. What is it about her wanting to rip other dogs throats out that bothers you?? Are you embarrassed? Are you worried that you will not be able to hold her? Do you think that she might do damage if she does get away?

I want to help you feel better about it

Thanks.

Well it is embarrassing thats true, but I can live with that.

These days I'm 100% confident I can hold her, and that she will not get away. Im not sure if she would actually do damage, in all her altercations she has never drawn blood. Im not keen to test this though.

At one point I was afraid of actually getting bitten myself as she initially began to show some redirected aggression but following my trainer's specific advice on this I dealt with this and consequently her behaviour improved- her outbursts have lessened and she is more mindful of me quicker now.

Now that you have made me think, its a tough question .

Ok, firstly its a very stressful way to walk, watching her alertness, waiting for that potential explosion and trying to avoid getting stressed myself. I would like to enjoy walking.

Also, I feel that in her snarling and lungeing it expresses her fear and I am frustrated that despite my best efforts I cant seem to prevent this level of anxiety that she is feeling.

Oh and another BIG reason is that I would like to be able to walk her with my kids and that is very difficult as my eldest daughter gets terrified when she sees another dog now in anticipation of our dog's behaviour.

I think sometimes we become part of the problem, as we see the potential "issue" (in my case it was skateboards) coming down the street, tense up and add to the building of drive or whatever.

I know from personal experience it is very hard to stop yourself doing this. One thing I have found helped (and I have a naturally anxious personality) is to try and stop thinking about anything when I am walking, I look straight ahead, try to keep the tension out of my shoulders etc. I find thinking about nothing seems to stop me constantly scanning for triggers.

I know you need to be aware, but I think body language does play a big role.

Deelee what happens if someone else walks her?

ETA: spelling

Edited March 4, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[dee lee]

Ok, firstly its a very stressful way to walk, watching her alertness, waiting for that potential explosion and trying to avoid getting stressed myself. I would like to enjoy walking.

I think I may have given the wrong impression with this.

When she first started showing the aggression I definitely was oozing with tenseness and no doubt influenced Evie's behaviour. Once I was made aware of that i have worked really really hard to lessen my reaction. Now, the stress is more that I get very annoyed after she has acted out.

I think zen thoughts when i see a dog and try to assume the best, I no longer feel anxious- the worst would be irritated which I hide.

I suspect it has become more a learnt behaviour from earlier. I am convinced my reaction has little to do with it as she is on high alert regardless of what I am doing. There are less instances of it than before but I would like zero!

MonElite: Lately we have seen only a couple of dogs when walking- we are back to the streets now its so dark at 6am. For the most part it is much more pleasant though and I have been enjoying it more. Unfortunately though she has decide the Akita in our street is her enemy and its sometimes its hard to avoid him when are coming home. No big deal though, I just proceed as normal and reel her in if she carries on.

JulesP: I want to thank you for making me think about what bothers me- it was a real eyeopeneer and really helped me on my walk this morning, made me not care so much!

To your question: Really Im not worried that she will connect with another dog, we are never close enough and I have complete control of her. I have bought a muzzle but that was for when I was considering a playdate with a dog she gets on with. I havent used it.

As for if I am not tense- I have been occasionally suprised by her reaction to a dog (she does have certain criteria for her "targets") and she has acted out despite my calmness.

Quickasyoucan: I do exactly the same and wear an Ipod when walking. It has helped enormously.

Someone else walk her - whatever do you mean??? No-one else but me can! Seriously, my OH runs with her and says much the same thing. Sometimes I make him walk her with me to see if she behaves better but its pretty much the same.

Edited March 5, 2009 by ✽deelee