My Fear Aggressive Dog

[MonElite]

The last time I saw Rex he had an outstanding recall, I also watched him run toward a dog that was aggressing toward his younger pack member & he was commanded to stop, in which he did instantly.

Yes Rex is very good providing he is wearing the collar (100% collar smart and I never weaned him off it)

Perhaps he has a few more tricks he has been taught that you dont give credit for? for example:

M: Dog in Rexs face and staring at him - different story!

K9: I remember using my entire male to do exactly this whilst I handled Rex with no aggression displayed. I was very proud of Rex that day, it was a big step for him.

Yes it was a nice moment now aobut 5 yeras ago, however your dog was totaly non reactive, was not stearing Rex in the face as you and I were constantly moving.

It was a step and thats where it pretty much ended as I was unable to find non reactive entire males to work with.

I did use the method to intro Rex to other dogs but they were always desexed.

Helpfull stuff that intro method, if only more people knew it the world would be a better place.

Main point Im trying to make deelee to you, is that assess what your goal is, find out if its realistic and then work towards it. My dream was to have my dog off lead in a off lead park where there would be many strange dogs potentially approaching mine.

It was a dream not a goal. Never got there, reasessed and got what is a good easy to do in every day life arrangement.

I do take Rex to all sorts of places, he was never a problem in public, and he gets to run off lead in empty parks.

I sometimes look at him and think he is missing out on what he loves - and its interaction with other dogs, but he has a permanent friend at home now and meets his friends once a week like he always did, just doenst make new friends. Maybe Eve would want to meet him one day.... he is a good boy and loves girls

[Steve K9Pro]

M: Yes Rex is very good providing he is wearing the collar (100% collar smart and I never weaned him off it)

K9: To wean off a tool is the choice of the handler, weaning off is right for some people, not others & better to have a reliable recall with an e collar than no recall at all.

Sometimes, to get what you want, you have to focus on what you have first.

Look for the positives.

M: Yes it was a nice moment now aobut 5 yeras ago, however your dog was totaly non reactive, was not stearing Rex in the face as you and I were constantly moving.

K9: You have to start somewhere & I suggest again, you have to look at the positives to move on.

M: It was a step and thats where it pretty much ended as I was unable to find non reactive entire males to work with.

K9: The program works by increasing the pressure, using the same non reactive dog over & over again wont be any therapy for the dog in treatment.

M: I did use the method to intro Rex to other dogs but they were always desexed.

Helpfull stuff that intro method, if only more people knew it the world would be a better place.

K9: Of course, & that means that if he met dogs without them getting in his face he would be greatly improved, have a super recall, stop command & other valuable improvements & skills he has learned.

PLUS PLUS PLUS.

I do agree with you that your set goal was too high in the time frame you set, but far from impossible to achieve given a longer time span or stepped goals.

[MonElite]

Well K9, we will never know what could have been achieved with my wonderful boy.

He is now over 9 years old, not that well, and you chose not to have me as a client to continue the training.

I did thank you many times for what you have taught me, although I dont really remember having a time frame on my goals.

I did want to do a CD with Rex, he knew all the excercises, I just didnt trust him on the stay to be next to a entire male. And, as I said before, I couldnt find multiple entire males to train with. One session with yours and then no dogs/people to train with... I still wouldnt put Rex in a stay 1m apart from an entire male, although he has mellowed out with age a lot.

Rex has an awesome life, I have my bitch to trial as she did a lot better then anyone has ever expected, and possibly a puppy very soon to train from scratch. All happy!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

M: Well K9, we will never know what could have been achieved with my wonderful boy.

He is now over 9 years old, not that well, and you chose not to have me as a client to continue the training.

K9: I am sorry to hear that he isnt well.

M: I did thank you many times for what you have taught me,

K9: Agreed

M: although I dont really remember having a time frame on my goals.

K9: There was more a degree of urgency on your part to keep moving on, & without a solid foundation on the bottom level, that wouldn't have been wise.

M: Rex has an awesome life, I have my bitch to trial as she did a lot better then anyone has ever expected, and possibly a puppy very soon to train from scratch. All happy!!!

K9: as long as your happy, all is good.

[dee lee]

Main point Im trying to make deelee to you, is that assess what your goal is, find out if its realistic and then work towards it. My dream was to have my dog off lead in a off lead park where there would be many strange dogs potentially approaching mine.

It was a dream not a goal. Never got there, reasessed and got what is a good easy to do in every day life arrangement.

I do take Rex to all sorts of places, he was never a problem in public, and he gets to run off lead in empty parks.

I sometimes look at him and think he is missing out on what he loves - and its interaction with other dogs, but he has a permanent friend at home now and meets his friends once a week like he always did, just doenst make new friends. Maybe Eve would want to meet him one day.... he is a good boy and loves girls

Hi Mon,

I agree with ALL you have said and Rex's story is very relevant to Evie's- though I don't feel confident or good enough a handler to ever expect perfect recall . I accept my limitations.

My goal is, as you have said, "to be able to take your dog places and have her behave with no stupidity" . I would like to be able to walk her and have her be non-reactive around other dogs, or at the very least not snarl and carry on around them. I immediately check her and stop her when she does it, but just would like to know how to STOP her from doing it. Its quite stressful for both of us.

I am resigned to her being on leash and not safe for offlead parks - I feel that is too much of a risk, hence why I havent worked on recall. Occasionally, like you, I think about what she is missing out on (and whine about it ) but realistically I am protecting her from fallout should she attack another dog.

Over the new year when I had a week off from her I had a good hard think about the stressful nature of owning Evie and decided to "step back" a little, put less expectation on her and try and enjoy her as part of our family. This means (again, as you said much earlier in this topic !) taking baby steps. One such step is stopping the aggressive behaviour.

When she does I would be delighted for her to meet Rex!

[MonElite]

Yes K9, all is great! My bitch is good - considering everyone hated her and told me to get rid of her, you including .

She is now a show champion, has and endurance title and a pass in obedience, yes she got 10 out of 10 for stand for examination! Bit of help from few people and we got there at the end. Ive done nothing with her since late Nov, but we will get back to it when I get back from Europe in June.

And in April Ill attempt to do a BH with her, her heeling especially in the group is crap, but Ill give it a go, if anything it will be a good experience for me and cheap laugh for the spectators.

Tracking will be next for her, shame she doesnt have enough drive to do character work, but what a great pet she is!!! and what a watch dog!!! (isnt she Ruthless? )

Cant wait to start training the pupp!! maybe this one will be my dream dog... black and tan, with no issues... one can only hope

I do feel that Rexs potential was wasted tho, he is a great dog.

Edited March 4, 2009 by MonElite

[Quickasyoucan]

I am resigned to her being on leash and not safe for offlead parks - I feel that is too much of a risk, hence why I havent worked on recall. Occasionally, like you, I think about what she is missing out on (and whine about it ) but realistically I am protecting her from fallout should she attack another dog.

Over the new year when I had a week off from her I had a good hard think about the stressful nature of owning Evie and decided to "step back" a little, put less expectation on her and try and enjoy her as part of our family. This means (again, as you said much earlier in this topic !) taking baby steps. One such step is stopping the aggressive behaviour.

When she does I would be delighted for her to meet Rex!

Deelee I am sorry I have nothing to add from a behaviour/training point of view, but from an emotional perspective, it is an eye opener that you are unable to do the things that most of us take for granted.

However, I highlighted the bit in the middle of the post. Try not to think she is missing out. I have a friend with a fearful rottie and he is always trying to force her to play with other dogs, she doesn't really want to and I really don't see how it would contribute to her happiness.

I don't believe that it is necessary for your dog to have to interact with other dogs for its happiness. Offleash parks are a double edged sword anyway. It's great for people like me who don't have a large backyard to let the boy have a run, but you inevitably come across the loser who can't control his dog and makes your life miserable. Any dog can end up in a barney in a dog park simply for that reason. I don't consider Jake to have an aggression problem, but he has been jumped on a few times in dog parks and he certainly does know how to fight, and it's certainly not pleasant. I avoid the leash free at popular times for that reason. I really don't care if Jake never interacts with dogs, it's more about letting him have off leash time for me, the best walks I have are just him and me and I can tell he loves that too.

I am glad that you say you are trying to enjoy her as part of the family too. Sometimes in life when there is something that is difficult for us it can obliterate all the positive things and I am sure there are many other things that are positive about Evie.

[MonElite]

Deelee - maybe you can come over one day and we go for a walk?

Im very limited with time atm, but could do a weekend walk not far from my place if that suits you.

Im sure Rex and Evie would like it too

[Steve K9Pro]

Yes, all is great! My bitch is good - considering everyone hated her and told me to get rid of her, you including .

K9: I did not on any occasion tell you to get rid of any dog. I said that if she did not meet your goals & you didn't want her that would be your choice.

I could count on one hand the amount of dogs that I have seen for aggression or other behavioural problems that I have recommended the dog be euthanised. These were cases in which the danger to the family & their lack of experience outweighed keeping the dog.

None of your dogs fell into that category.

I am only interested in discussing facts with you.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Deelee, there are some things in your posts that don't suggest to me your dog is fear aggressive, rather rank aggressive, the treatment of the two different styles of aggression is totally different.

This may be where your problems or some of them lay.

[MonElite]

Oh no I didnt mean you told me to put any of my dog to sleep!

however a sentence that is - this dog will not meet your goals I interpret as - rehome this dog if you want your goals met and get another dog that will be suitable.

Appoliges if this is not what was meant.

I didnt get rid of her and love her and she is great, thats all it matters to me.

[dee lee]

Offleash parks are a double edged sword anyway. It's great for people like me who don't have a large backyard to let the boy have a run, but you inevitably come across the loser who can't control his dog and makes your life miserable. Any dog can end up in a barney in a dog park simply for that reason. I don't consider Jake to have an aggression problem, but he has been jumped on a few times in dog parks and he certainly does know how to fight, and it's certainly not pleasant.

You are so right- when Evie was a pup we would go to offleash parks and unfortunately she had some bad experiences there. This, coupled with my ignorance on how to deal with them, was, to my mind, the basis for her fear aggression. You live and learn...

I believe she already had some "issues" when I adopted her at 6 months (My first trainer said she was noticeably under-socialised) so in retrospect I should have avoided offlead parks from day one. I think most of my regrets stem from the early offlead park days- they were really lovely.

Trying to find the positive experiences now!

Monika- I would really like that!

Edited March 4, 2009 by ✽deelee

[dee lee]

K9: Deelee, there are some things in your posts that don't suggest to me your dog is fear aggressive, rather rank aggressive, the treatment of the two different styles of aggression is totally different.

This may be where your problems or some of them lay.

Could you define rank aggressive for me? Im unsure of what you mean.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: when someone comes to me with a dog & tells me their goals, if I do not see those goals happening with that dog I don't sell them lessons until they get board, I tell them up front it wont happen.

What you have achieved with her is great, however, it isn't what you wanted to do back when you got her, you set different goals since then, based on the dogs nerves & drives.

So, I guess you followed my advice whether you intended to or not. Well done.

[Steve K9Pro]

D: Could you define rank aggressive for me? Im unsure of what you mean.

K9: there are various forms of rank drive, but often rank drive is a product of over confidence, lack of leadership or fear aggression turned confident.

Rank driven dogs gain drive satisfaction by exerting dominance, commonly through aggression.

[Kavik]

Every time I have seen Rex he has been well behaved He and Diesel like each other (though Rex does try to hump Diesel )

[MonElite]

K9 - I wanted to show her - this was my nr 1 goal. And I did, and titeled her myself with noones help in the ring, which being a novice handler can be very difficult.

What was said, done or not done isnt of importance now, but its good to see you take interest in my achievements despite the fact you dont train me for last what? 2.5 years? Thank you for your time and consideration. I rather look into the future then dwell on the past so I will no doubt keep the people on the forum updated with the new pupps progress, hopefully it turns out to be the dog I really like!

Yes I will put photos Rexs too if anyone wants to see him

[Steve K9Pro]

M: K9 - I wanted to show her - this was my nr 1 goal. And I did, and titeled her myself with noones help in the ring, which being a novice handler can be very difficult.

K9: still have the client sheet you filled out outlining your goals. Yes showing was one of them. If you still call yourself a Novice handler after the amount of time you have spent, you are playing something down.

M: What was said, done or not done isnt of importance now,

K9: You brought it up not me.

M: but its good to see you take interest in my achievements

K9: I never forget any dog trusted in my care. I forget people all the time, always remember the dogs.

M: despite the fact you dont train me for last what? 2.5 years?

K9: Yes thats true, I like to think the information I gave you will last a lifetime though.

M: Thank you for your time and consideration. I rather look into the future then dwell on the past

k9: You keep typing about the past though....

Edited March 4, 2009 by K9 Force

[MonElite]

If you still call yourself a Novice handler after the amount of time you have spent, you are playing something down.

I have never showed a dog before I got Divani!!! She isnt even 3 years old. So when I was showing her to the title (roughly once a month) I was considered a novice show handler. Competing against show judges and long term breeders and showies, being a newby isnt easy...

I forget people all the time

noice....

Edited March 4, 2009 by MonElite

[dee lee]

D: Could you define rank aggressive for me? Im unsure of what you mean.

K9: there are various forms of rank drive, but often rank drive is a product of over confidence, lack of leadership or fear aggression turned confident.

Rank driven dogs gain drive satisfaction by exerting dominance, commonly through aggression.

Hmm. Are you saying that this is directed at me or at other dogs?

I work hard on leadership in our home and on our walks.

At home she follows all commands I give to her and is mindful of boundaries that I have set. NO sign of exerting dominance- even over my 2 young children.

When walking she is on high alert to her surroundings. She will walk to heel if directed and her "free" walking (looselead) is getting better, but if we come across a dog she is uncertain of she loses her focus on me entirely and will snarl and lunge towards it til she chokes herself.

Does this fit with the rank aggression? I wouldve thought it was classic fear aggression?