My Fear Aggressive Dog

[dee lee]

Remember that Zoe is 9 now so I'm past the worst of it. The worst was when she was younger and I still had hopes and dreams of competing, and was taking her to classes, where she would be aggressive I would come home from class and do this Now that I know she won't compete, and have younger, more social dogs to compete with, I don't worry about her so much. She has taught me a lot though! I started the Click to Calm as sort of an experiment to see if it would make any difference. At that point, it certainly couldn't hurt!

Thats ok then, I dont feel like such a huge nincompoop!! (just a small one )

I understand about how much she has taught you- when i get my Finnish Lapphund (research says apparently the easiest trained dog ) training will be a breeze!

Of course i will have to wait a long time for Evie to pass before that happens.

Edited March 3, 2009 by ✽deelee

[huski]

I understand about how much she has taught you- when i get my Finnish Lapphund (research says apparently the easiest trained dog ) training will be a breeze!

Of course i will have to wait a long time for Evie to pass before that happens.

Hey, a lappy will be my next dog too I don't think they will be the easiest dog to train (they are still a spitz) but certainly a more biddable dog then I am used to

We were able to get Daisy as a pup with Micha, as he is fine once he knows a dog We had them separated unless supervised for 6 weeks and now they are best buddies!

[dee lee]

We were able to get Daisy as a pup with Micha, as he is fine once he knows a dog We had them separated unless supervised for 6 weeks and now they are best buddies!

Thats good to know- I would LOVE another dog, and, despite her behaviour, I am sure Evie would too (and not just to eat! ).

Not so sure if the OH would consent though.

[dee lee]

Just wanted to wish you good luck.

We had a fear aggressive dog, but he was fear aggressive with people, not dogs, and I ended up giving him his wings last week, because he was just too unpredictable with my young son. He only ever loved 3 people in his life, his breeder, me and my OH. Everyone else were to be treated as a huge threat, and despite trying a lot of different things, he never got over it. We managed it, but now our son is older and able to open doors and gates and such, we decided we could not take the risk any longer. He was absolutely unable to be rehomed, and so I think we did the kindest thing for him.

Oh Rysup- thats so sad!

I thank my lucky stars my dog only has a problem with dogs- it must be a horrible burden to have to deal with a people aggressive dog, especially when you love them. Hugs to you.

Thanks for your wishes.

[Cosmolo]

I will probably get flamed for this and thats okay- i am not suggesting you do this, it may not be suitable or appropriate for you or your dog and should only be done with the supervision of a qualified trainer experienced with this method in a state where it is legal to do so.

We have had significant success in the last 2 years working with dog aggressive dogs (fear aggressive, critical period lack of socialisation, dominance aggression and territorial/ guarding type aggression) using remote training collars.

Over a period of 1-2 months for the initial training the dogs we have used this technique on have gone from reactive at great distance, to coping with dogs walking by, touching noses and running up to them in the street, beach or park. Now, the owners use the remote correction maybe once a week at a low level and enjoy things with their dogs they never thought possible. These dogs/ owners lived in areas highly populated with dogs where critical distance training simply was not possible- staying away from other dogs meant not leaving the yard and all of the dogs were active dogs where a lack of exercise then increased the reactivity as well.

Are the dogs cured? No. But the thresholds have increased to the point that the dogs can cope with every practical situation they would be placed in- with owners who understand how to read body language and manage the situation- for example moving away from the bouncy dog who 'just came to play' rather than leaving them there for excessive periods of time. The dogs do not react and give the owners time to remove them/ continue walking so their is no issue.

We start with teaching the dogs how to respond to the collar with no distractions to obedience commands- we generally start with heel. The level of stimulation is the lowest possible level the dog can feel.

We then start to introduce distractions- starting with distractions the dog is responsive NOT reactive to and progressing to the triggers that produce the reactivity. By the time the dog gets to this point, they clearly understand the stimulation is NOT about the dog but about their behaviour/ responses. We continue to train increasing the distractions. All of the initial handling of the remote is done by the trainer until the dog 'gets it' and the owner is educated in the use of the collar. In my experience, owners find this very easy to pick up on when explained and done correctly. By the time we hand over the remote, the owners are no longer novice handlers and we are yet to have an issue caused by poor timing/ incorrect use of the collars. The technique allows owners to control behaviour without frustration, and obvious body language or cues to the dog such as moving hands/ feet etc.

I don't know if this is at all a suitable option for you and your dog. But it can be helpful to hear stoies of other owners who felt the same way you do with regards to their dogs problems who have achieved more than they ever thought possible.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Kavik]

What sort of dog would that be appropriate for? Are there some temperaments that would not be suited to this?

Zoe is also skittish and a bit nervy, not sure how she would go with an ecollar. Diesel was really freaked out by it and he has a much more solid temperament.

[dee lee]

I wont flame you, That sounds great Cosmolo, I particularly like that you as a trainer use the remotes first. VERY sensible.

I did have the opportunity to use an e-collar, but after much though decided against it.

My dog's aggression was made worse by me using new correction tools- first a harness and then a prong, entirely my fault- I crumbled when she started to growl at another dog and could not implement a proper correction. I felt that after that experience it was probably better for me to accept that I could possibly do more damage if I used an E-collar.

ETA: Kavik- yes, that would be my concern with Evie.

Edited March 3, 2009 by ✽deelee

[JulesP]

I just wish that you had a dog that you enjoyed Deelee. Your posts always make me sad. I do feel for you.

[ruthless]

I just wish that you had a dog that you enjoyed Deelee. Your posts always make me sad. I do feel for you.

I think it's because she forgets to tell us when things are going well. It's not all doom and gloom

[dee lee]

I just wish that you had a dog that you enjoyed Deelee. Your posts always make me sad. I do feel for you.

Thanks for the thoughts Jules,

Mostly I just wish I could make it better. I do enjoy being at home with her, she is a sweetie there.

I think it's because she forgets to tell us when things are going well. It's not all doom and gloom

Yes, its nice when I go walking with Ruth!

[Cosmolo]

Let me give a few examples-

Dog one- Kelpie x, very timid and lacking in confidence but high levels of reactivity/ aggression with dogs. This dog surprised even me with how she responded as i did expect her to be a little more 'crumbly' initially. She is now a much more confident dog than she ever was before and extremely relaxed- even with dogs in her face because she knows just what she needs to do. Her confidence with people has also improved dramatically- simply because things are now clear for her and she feels that she has control. I am pleasantly suprised every time i see this dog now as she consistently appears happier than she ever was before

Dog two- Weimaraner, highly anxious temperament, more confident with people than above dog. Noticable difference in the dogs state of relaxation after collar training, improvement in all exercises but no other temperament difference.

Dog Three- Mal x Shih Tsu, highly intelligent, slightly dominant personality type- very high level reactivity to other dogs. Improvements across the board including being more relaxed around the home as well as out and about. Dog never lacked confidence in the first place but actually had more initial tantrums than either of the above dogs. While i still believe the stress level was low i think this dogs initial stress was higherthan the 2 weak nerved dogs above

They are just a few examples- the others i have are similar. Most clients are apprehensive when an e collar is first suggested and i think this is totally understandable- but they trust us and try (which is a responsibility we take VERY seriously) and not one has ever regretted their decision.

To be honest- its more the owners of the dog that would cause me to say a dog is unsuitable. I won't give/ suggest an e collar to someone who has not made some effort in training in other areas, to someone who does not listen to instruction etc. I am yet to meet a dog that i felt would be unsuitable to have an e collar used on them in this way- low level stimulation in steps- not high level corrections used instantly. I never hand over a remote until i am confident both dog and owner are ready- this usually only takes a few sessions but we will continue for longer if the owner is uncomfortable of course.

I have used an e collar on my Georgie who has the worst fear based issues (panic and avoidance- not aggression) we have ever seen and it has improved her confidence, freedom and quality of life significantly. I won't do anything with someone else's dog that i would not do with my own.

[Teebs]

I just wish that you had a dog that you enjoyed Deelee. Your posts always make me sad. I do feel for you.

nah, im with OP, we only post when shit is going on. It is heart breaking to own a dog aggressive dog, all your dreams and hopes for anything you wanted to do with that dog are gone, it takes a long time to get over that, but never do you stop loving your dog

Kaos was meant to be my flyball dog, I wanted to take her to off lead parks, swimming, obedience, everything, but nope.. not to happen. I was upset for a long time, i never stopped loving her or enjoying her, but it did take me a while to get into the right headspace about her problems.

I wouldnt swap her for the world now. My next dog will be perfect

[Kavik]

Thank you for the examples

I think part of the problem I have is that I am unsure about their use and maybe Diesel realised I was worried though he did hide in a crate and jumped every time a fly came near him (I think he thought the collar was a fly bite).

[Cosmolo]

How did you use it with diesel kavik?

[Steve K9Pro]

D: I did have the opportunity to use an e-collar, but after much though decided against it.

K9: It isn't a matter of using the e collar, it is a mater of adding the e collar to a good complete training program. The tool alone will do very little for you.

D: My dog's aggression was made worse by me using new correction tools- first a harness and then a prong, entirely my fault- I crumbled when she started to growl at another dog and could not implement a proper correction. I felt that after that experience it was probably better for me to accept that I could possibly do more damage if I used an E-collar.

K9: Do keep in mind that possibly an increase in aggression would have occurred anyway.

I have been using e collars to treat aggression for many years, they are in many ways an emotionless correction that is easily converted to a communication cue when the owner is taught how to use one within the training program.

Aggression in most cases can be rehabilitated, but most people taper off in their training because they have reached a level of success or maintenance they are satisfied with, others however progress on to total rehabilitation.

It in the end it is more to do with the owner than the dog.

I would say though, I would not attempt to learn this from someone without any experience in using the e collar to treat aggression, someone experimenting wont help.

Some things work better on some dogs or with some owners but it is also essential to have a behaviourist assess your dog to make sure your treatment is designed off the correct diagnosis.

[Kavik]

It was at a K9 Force seminar

[dee lee]

It in the end it is more to do with the owner than the dog.

That is very true.

*sigh* I frequently question my ability to train my dog.

ETA:

I would say though, I would not attempt to learn this from someone without any experience in using the e collar to treat aggression, someone experimenting wont help.

I didnt want attempt to do this. I really think Cosmolo's approach would suit me though.

Edited March 3, 2009 by ✽deelee

[MonElite]

deelee - I believe you need to set yourself a realistic goal to achieve and aim for that.

From what I understand all you want is for you to be able to take your dog places and have her behave with no stupidity.

I believe this can be achieved, with whatever tool you use, providing you are a good pack leader.

If your goal however is to be able to walk in to a leash free park see a group of unknown dogs running free chasing a ball, than Id call this an unrealistic goal, at least right now, but IMHO ever. for me the hardest part of dog training was to realise taht the goal I had set for myself will never be achieved, hence I had to re - assess and re - adjust what I was doing.

I have had a reactive dog, was told that its possible to cure him, and my dream was to be able to let him go anywhere with other dogs. Over time I realised that the work involved was simply unrealistic. There was no way I was going to be able to find countless numbers of non reactive entire males and owners willing to work with me. so in theory it might have been achievable, in practice it was not, simply due to lack or resources, including financial.

What I have managed to achieve is a great recall on my dog, he was always allowed to be off lead and I more or less knew his critical distance, but with some work - and what I think back to now - not that much effort - I am able to prevent things from happening. I can just call my dog to me, turn around and walk back to avoid other dogs.

But if my dog is on lead and a dog runs up to him, there is no way Rex will just stay calm and not react. the distance is important and Rex will not react to a dog 2-3 m away from him.

He was never really THAT bad, he was a very successful show dog and was shown in the ring countless times in a very close proximity to other entire males. he was under good control hence there was an occasional growl here or there but nothing bad and nothing that I would ever cosider to be an issue and to stop him from being shown.

I never had an issue that I would walk on the street and he would lounge and carry on like a fruitloop becouse there was some dog on the other side of the road. Dog in Rexs face and staring at him - different story!

I was once in class doing obedience and left him on a sit stay someone walked with an entire staffy right next to my dog he had no hessitations to take a chunk of the staffy. and did will all seriousness with an intent of causing injury, not the spit and dribble stuff and plucking few chunks of the other dogs fur. When Rex grabbed he grabbed and wouldnt let go.

Oh and he hated a boxer bitch in class too, she was a weird one, she would just stare at him all the time, I could not work next to her.

But all in all, Rex had and continues to have a small group of dog friends that he can run around with, they are all getting older and run less but they do get on.

Rex hardly ever meets new dogs, some of the late ones were Chopper and they got on well - well Rex wanted to bonk him and was in love with him Chopper was not so impressed but didnt want to eat him.

And a friend of mine brought a Belgian Shepherd - desexed male over to my place, not long ago. that is a non reactive dog.

We met just outside my house and I psyched Rex up that its a girl

Intro was quick and we were inside my home for few hours.

Leo had enough of Rex after a while and wanted to take a chunk of him for his efforts to bonk him (again) so Rex learned that perhaps this "girl" is in a bad mood and wont give in.

But there is no way that I would attempt to have an entire male in my house, no matter how non reactive. No way.........

BTW - have never used nor attempted to use the ecollar as a tool to cure dog aggression - would have a clue how, but I can teach the dog to come, and do all sorts of other useful exercises.

Id be interested to learn how the ecollar is used to cure aggression, rather then teach the dog to perform certain exercises in a specific situation

What is your goal deelee???

Edited March 3, 2009 by MonElite

[Just Midol]

Someone should run a seminar on using the e-collar with aggression...

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: It is of course a good idea to set a realistic goal & work with a professional to achieve that goal.

I would also like to point out that some people whom have had an aggressive dog, think that rehabilitation means that they would never see aggression from their dog in any situation ever again. This simply isn't realistic because a dog that isn't dog aggressive will show aggression under the right or wrong circumstances.

Exposing a dog to twenty off leash dogs that run up to it with out a hint of control can very often present reactions from any dog including aggressive reactions. The reality is that under the right provocation or impression, any one or anything can display aggression.

I have had many success stories in which people have achieved outstanding results, they did follow the program to the letter, they did have their ups & downs but never did they give up or vary from the program. They didn't continue on with activities I warned against, they didn't invent their own steps into the training program & they didn't just take small prices of the training program & apply the parts they wanted.

They did every part & reaped the rewards. The rewards were "They met their goals."

They didn't need countless decoy dogs, unlimited lessons or finances, but they did need to be seriously committed.

M: What I have managed to achieve is a great recall on my dog, he was always allowed to be off lead and I more or less knew his critical distance, but with some work - and what I think back to now - not that much effort - I am able to prevent things from happening. I can just call my dog to me, turn around and walk back to avoid other dogs.

K9: This is true, having a reliable recall that you can depend on relieves a lot of stress as you can run your dog off leash & not carry the negative feelings of fear that are often read by the dog & encourage negative reactions by the dog/s.

The last time I saw Rex he had an outstanding recall, I also watched him run toward a dog that was aggressing toward his younger pack member & he was commanded to stop, in which he did instantly.

Perhaps he has a few more tricks he has been taught that you dont give credit for? for example:

M: Dog in Rexs face and staring at him - different story!

K9: I remember using my entire male to do exactly this whilst I handled Rex with no aggression displayed. I was very proud of Rex that day, it was a big step for him.

********************************************

JM: Someone should run a seminar on using the e-collar with aggression..

.

K9: It is a delicate subject where good ground work of aggression must be taught first, I wouldn't do it just by teaching the steps of the e collar & leave people no idea on how aggression works in a dog. Therefore it would be quite in depth.

teaching it one on one however is a lot easier.

Edited March 3, 2009 by K9 Force