dee lee Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 For those who dont know, I have a 2 yo fear aggressive staffy x. She has been a difficult dog for me to train and I have had help from trainers and a lot of help from DOL but I am still struggling with her DA. I am at the point now where I am now in control of her (I was initially frightened of her outbursts which didnt help), but I want to do more than just manage her issues. Last week JenIsAwesome perfectly summarised my situation: Say for example, you have a fearful dog who reacts to other dogs with aggression, because of his fear. Every time he gets within a certain distance of another dog he goes off, Barking lunging snarling. You would think that if you walked past that same dog, every day, at that same distance, he would eventually learn that theres no threat? Only if you don't let him react! Otherwise, if you could speak to that dog, and you said "Hey mate, you've gone past this same dog, every day, at this same distance, why do you keep reacting, theres obviously no threat?" The dogs reply "Because my reaction is the only thing that keeps me safe!" They believe that that basically, if they don't strike first, then the other dog will attack, and the only reason they're safe, is because of their reaction. My question is, how do I help my dog stop reacting like this? Currently I am trying to desensitise her by taking her near other dogs, but there is always a dog somewhere on our walk that she will lunge and snarl at- I cant seem to stop this behaviour, corrections dont work at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Hi DeeLee I didn't try to desensitize my dog by taking him near others as this just gave him more opportunity to be aggressive - you don't want to give her any opportunity to snap, growl, lunge etc at another dog because this will only reinforce in her mind that aggression is the way to go. There is also no point trying to correct her when she is already exhibiting aggression because by then it is too late, and she's pumped full of adrenalin and wouldn't feel the correction anyway. I also found that when he was close to other dogs he was so pumped full of adrenalin and hyped up and stressed that there was no way I could work with him or get his focus. I did work on the concept of time before distance before distraction and worked on getting his focus on me in a low distraction environment, slowly building this up to higher levels of distraction and slowly decreasing our distance from another dog. It took time but even now his threshold towards other dogs is hugely improved. Have you thought about having a session or two with a behaviourist? I know you said you've seen a trainer but it can help to have someone who is experienced in aggression and is able to show you how to read your dog and see the signs of when she is about to aggress etc. If you are in Sydney, have you thought about seeing K9 Force? Edited March 3, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I'm trying obedience club with Trixie. The first two weeks were pretty full on, but she was heaps better last week. I've been advised by several people that it's not a good idea, but it worked for Chopper, so I want to see if it works for her. Having said that, I am somewhat resigned to the fact that she is how she is and I may never "cure" her I'll be watching this thread to see if there's any good suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Kaos is much better around dogs she knows, i can go walking my normal path, and if there is a dog in a front yard, she ignores... Unless it is a NEW dog, then she will go off. I found this in training as well, she was fine in our class, but if someone else joined, it would take a few weeks for her to be ok around that dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 As aggressive behaviour can be dangerous to deal with, your best bet is to see a behaviourist (not sure if you have already done this?) Have you done much focus work with her? I wish I had seen someone about Zoe. Zoe is still aggressive towards other dogs, and I never let her meet other dogs. However she has improved so that if I pull into a driveway and give a dog distance, I can have her sitting while the other dog passes. Ideally she will sit there and look at me, we do get the odd growl, which she will stop if I tell her No. What I have found helpful is some exercises outlined in "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons. Basically modified attention exercises with the clicker. Probably the most difficult thing for me (in general with clicker training, and especially here) is letting the dog actually make the choice. Here it is the choice to look at you instead of something else. Instead of putting a piece of food in front of her nose to distract her (what I had done before) I let her make the choice of whether to look at me or the dog, and when she looks at me she gets a click and treat. She is then able to look away from me, at the dog, and then look at me again for another click/treat with no aggression! I started this with the dog on the other side of the road (assuming dog knows look at you = click to begin with) so it was far enough away that there was no way anything could happen and I could relax and let her make the choice without worrying about the other dog approaching. By letting her look at the other dog, then look at me etc she is slowly learning to deal with the other dog being there and that it is OK for it to be there without her getting aggressive. She will still get aggressive if another dog is too close, we don't see it or I don't stop to do the clicker work, so by no means cured, but certainly better and nicer to walk (I make sure I only walk where there is a way for me to give other dogs space). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Kaos is much better around dogs she knows, i can go walking my normal path, and if there is a dog in a front yard, she ignores... Unless it is a NEW dog, then she will go off. I found this in training as well, she was fine in our class, but if someone else joined, it would take a few weeks for her to be ok around that dog I think the same goes for Evie. We've met for walks and at first she went for Angel's jugular [hope you don't mind me saying that Dee ], but by the end of it they were having kisses! "Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog" by Emma Parsons. I have that book if you want to borrow it. I haven't read it yet, so you can read it and tell me what it says! Kavik, would you say that managing Zoe is the best you can hope for at this stage? Edited March 3, 2009 by ruthless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Even tho kaos seems ok around dogs she knows, i have never risked letting her touch another dog, i know what she could do, would be a different story if i had someone who knew what they were doing on the end of the other dogs lead, but that isnt going to happen, so i wont let her near other dogs. She does play with Beryl the bull terrier bitch at work, through the fence, they both love each other with a fence or a crate between them, but both are shit one on one with other dogs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Mish is the same TB. He can be introduced to new dogs if we do it slowly and once he is used to them he is fine. It is so indicative of his fear aggression and that 'I have to get in before they get me!' process his brain goes through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Yes, managing is the best we'll be able to do - she is 9 yrs old! If I'd gotten professional help and maybe started the click to calm stuff as soon as the problem started at 6 months that would be different, and maybe we could have competed like I wanted to, but at this stage it is very ingrained and I still have to be on my toes. She is weird though, I have boarded her with Diesel's breeders several times, and she can go in with their GSDs and not be aggro with them. (Probably because they don't really care and don't react to her. Why I got Diesel from them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 i have never risked letting her touch another dog It was onlead. The first outburst was my fault cause I didn't know the extent of her aggression and I walked right up to her. It was just spit and dribble anyway, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If I'd gotten professional help and maybe started the click to calm stuff as soon as the problem started at 6 months that would be different, and maybe we could have competed like I wanted to, but at this stage it is very ingrained and I still have to be on my toes. Kavik I know the feeling. I was told by so many people to just keep socialising Micha with other dogs and that would make his behaviour improve. Obviously it made it worse, and I so wish I knew then what I know now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Just wanted to wish you good luck. We had a fear aggressive dog, but he was fear aggressive with people, not dogs, and I ended up giving him his wings last week, because he was just too unpredictable with my young son. He only ever loved 3 people in his life, his breeder, me and my OH. Everyone else were to be treated as a huge threat, and despite trying a lot of different things, he never got over it. We managed it, but now our son is older and able to open doors and gates and such, we decided we could not take the risk any longer. He was absolutely unable to be rehomed, and so I think we did the kindest thing for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Im of a belif that serious dog agression can not be cured. It can be managed really well and dogs will improve with time, such as a reactivity distance can be greatly reduced and acceptance of more dogs can be achieved, but IMO it can not be fully cured. But the main thing with the FEAR argo dog is to show it that you are a good pack leader and that YOU will take care of nasty situations and protect the dog. This comes down to very solid pack leadership and only then you can start desetisizing etc. Without it - forget it, it will enver happen. Also baby steps - most people rush things up, its not the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 ^^^ what she said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 at ruthless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 What? I know that's the answer, I just didn't feel like typing it all out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 Thanks guys, When I say desensitising I am not actually letting her meet other dogs (now!), I have been taking her to parks where there are dogs and walking on the path away from them and being sure to let her know I dont care they are there. She has been pretty good with this- more excited than aggressive and no snarling. Its just the occasional dog that she may see when walking on the street that she will carry-on about. Kavik, your suggestion sounds very good, I think even I may be able to manage that (I SUCK at training)- Ruthless, I would LOVE to borrow that, Ive still not bought a clicker yet but will now. Also as Ruthless has mentioned (thats OK love) she is a bit of a get in before they get me kind of dog, but then calms down after a while. She has walked calmly with all Ruthless' dogs and been fine for a meet afterwards. Same with another friend's dog. To be honest this aggression only started about 6 months ago- just before Evie jumped Angel, and I was in no way expecting it at all. I am VERY aware now and go out of my way to keep distance from other dogs, even if I know them. Monelite, I agree i think I am in for the long haul. I dont expect that I can fix her so she can play with other dogs but I would like to be able to walk her without her losing it. She is managable but its really unpleasant and means I cant walk my kids at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I think for me what really helped with the Click to Calm stuff is how I approached it - it helped me to approach it as a clicker training exercise (click for looking at me) rather than a dog aggression fixing exercise, so I was able to relax and be more objective and try to mark the positive behaviour rather than waiting for the negative behaviour and pouncing on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 I think for me what really helped with the Click to Calm stuff is how I approached it - it helped me to approach it as a clicker training exercise (click for looking at me) rather than a dog aggression fixing exercise, so I was able to relax and be more objective and try to mark the positive behaviour rather than waiting for the negative behaviour and pouncing on that. Cripes, you have 3 dogs, one with DA AND a baby- how do you do it? My brain hurts just reading advice! Thanks for the tips Kavik- they make good sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Remember that Zoe is 9 now so I'm past the worst of it. The worst was when she was younger and I still had hopes and dreams of competing, and was taking her to classes, where she would be aggressive I would come home from class and do this Now that I know she won't compete, and have younger, more social dogs to compete with, I don't worry about her so much. She has taught me a lot though! I started the Click to Calm as sort of an experiment to see if it would make any difference. At that point, it certainly couldn't hurt! Edited March 3, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now