Is A Dog That Isn't Listening Dominant?

[poodlefan]

I tend to agree with you m-j, opportunistic and clever to a "T".

And from an evolutionary perspective, good survival attributes.

[m-j]

Quickie....when you call your cat and it ignores you, is that dominance?

Arrogance??

[poodlefan]

Quickie....when you call your cat and it ignores you, is that dominance?

Arrogance??

Irrelevance? (to the cat)

Cat's aren't as social as dogs. It's difficult to categorise their relationship with us as much more than opportunistic IMO.

[Just Midol]

If someone injures there dog when clipping the nails and a fear response is created then it is a completely different scenario, and I don't even know why you bought that up as an example.

Because it is very common for people to screw up their first time grooming attempts, far more common I'd argue than dominance issues are. They leave it too long to handle the puppy, they don't get it used to the tools before using them, they don't ask anyone to show them the proper technique, and when they finally get around to it they go way too fast. The first time the dog even sees the brush or the clipper or whatever it is 8 months old and it completely freaks out. You don't have to cut the quick to get this result.

Then the owner freaks out because they didn't think it would be so hard and if they are responsible they ring a groomer (who will quietly on the phone at the prospect of dealing with another completely green dog) or if they are irresponsible they just leave the dog to turn into a matted clicky-clawed mess.

Edited to make the eyerolly work

Ahh yep, now I get you. I wouldn't have used the nail clipping example but I see where you're coming from.

Dog knows what I expect, dog chooses to ignore me. Dog is being dominant.

So if a cue you have given the dog will cause it more pain than you have used to correct your dog with in the past, the dog is being defiant therefore dominant in your mind, not avoiding an unpleasant experience and opting for the lesser of the two evils in the dog's mind?

cheers

M-J

I don't get you. Use a specific example. Dogs don't know something will hurt unless it has hurt them in the past.

If the dog doesn't listen to me, with a known command then he is being dominant as he is using power and control which is in my hands. Dominance is power and control, the dog attempts to exhibit control, dominance.

[Kelpie-i]

So why can't a dog be labelled as arrogant instead of dominant when he refuses to listen?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The toenail analogy comes down to this. If you know how to clip your dogs nails, have spent time teaching your dog to tolerate it and still can't succeed, the dog's successful avoidance strategies are working. This doesn't mean the animal needs to be alpha rolled but somehow it needs to be taught that it must tolerate it. Often the people who do that are professional groomers or vet nurses who start a whole new relationship on different terms

Sorry poodlefan, I missed the bolded bit on the first go around. I blame lack of sleep.

Will leave my rambling up anyway because it may be useful to someone. Love the Suzanne Clothier quote too, it's my furniture philosophy

[Just Midol]

So why can't a dog be labelled as arrogant instead of dominant when he refuses to listen?

Because arrogance is having excessive pride in yourself.

My dogs don't. They have dominance, they aren't proud, they just don't want to do what I say (sometimes).

[m-j]

Irrelevance? (to the cat)

Cat's aren't as social as dogs. It's difficult to categorise their relationship with us as much more than opportunistic IMO

Yes that is a much better word. I was just mucking around when I said arrogance hence the laughing icon. I know next to nothing about cats so really have no idea what they are thinking and my cat always comes as he knows he is going to get fed or get a pat he likes both.

I don't get you. Use a specific example. Dogs don't know something will hurt unless it has hurt them in the past.

Ok say you have taught your dog a straight recall by adding a mild adversive when the dog doesn't come straight to you. You want your dog to recall straight to you over some bindies and the dog knows they are there (found that out by going to where the dog is at the time so is reluctant to experience them again) so therefore doesn't come straight to you, arcs around the bindies (takes the risk of experiencing the mild adversive). I'm inclined to think the dog is opting for the lesser of the two evils, not being dominant.

cheers

M-J

[Just Midol]

Irrelevance? (to the cat)

Cat's aren't as social as dogs. It's difficult to categorise their relationship with us as much more than opportunistic IMO

Yes that is a much better word. I was just mucking around when I said arrogance hence the laughing icon. I know next to nothing about cats so really have no idea what they are thinking and my cat always comes as he knows he is going to get fed or get a pat he likes both.

I don't get you. Use a specific example. Dogs don't know something will hurt unless it has hurt them in the past.

Ok say you have taught your dog a straight recall by adding a mild adversive when the dog doesn't come straight to you. You want your dog to recall straight to you over some bindies and the dog knows they are there (found that out by going to where the dog is at the time so is reluctant to experience them again) so therefore doesn't come straight to you, arcs around the bindies (takes the risk of experiencing the mild adversive). I'm inclined to think the dog is opting for the lesser of the two evils, not being dominant.

cheers

M-J

Ohhh, yes, in that example I would not say it is dominance.

[Kelpie-i]

Arrogant: "Having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance".

Dominance: "Power and influence over others"

If a dog does not come when called (and he knows the command) is this dominance? Let's have a good think about it.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Just Midol]

Arrogant: "Having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance".

Dominance: "Power and influence over others"

If a dog does not come when called (and he knows the command) is this dominance? Let's have a good think about it.

I include control in the place of influence for dominance.

So for me, dominance: "Power and control over others"

From the dogs perspective, if he disobeys me when he knows the command he thinks I don't have control over him, so he thinks he can do what he likes, which is control.

[Kelpie-i]

But what about if its a matter of choice for the dog and not the fact that you have no control? Remember he listens to you every other time except for when there is, perhaps, something more interesting or exciting for him.

When you were a teenager and didn't listen to your parents, were you being dominant or just defiant? Did you feel dominant over your parents when they told you to be home by midnight and you weren't. You made a choice not to listen because the act of doing what you wanted was more pleasurable and held more reward to yourself than listening to your parents. You were acting in a degree of arrogance...your own self importance.

I see dogs as no more different than this. They do not live their lives as a continous plot to seek power and control over you, they merely live their lives as they see favourable to themselves. Give and inch, take a mile....grass is greener etc etc. They will do what works for them and what we allow them to do. They will act if and when it is favourable to them. This is not dominance but rather opportunistic. Are they full of their own importance....you bet they are. This would make them more arrogant (to varying degrees) not dominant.

A dog who does not listen is making some life choices and will deal with the consequences of his decisions later.

[Just Midol]

But what about if its a matter of choice for the dog and not the fact that you have no control? Remember he listens to you every other time except for when there is, perhaps, something more interesting or exciting for him.

When you were a teenager and didn't listen to your parents, were you being dominant or just defiant? Did you feel dominant over your parents when they told you to be home by midnight and you weren't. You made a choice not to listen because the act of doing what you wanted was more pleasurable and held more reward to yourself than listening to your parents. You were acting in a degree of arrogance...your own self importance.

Yes, I do view it as dominance. Dominance is simply control and power. When I did something my parents told me not to I did so because I didn't care about their control or power, they had none over me. It was an act of dominance. They weren't the "boss" of me, I was my own "boss".

I see dogs as no more different than this. They do not live their lives as a continous plot to seek power and control over you, they merely live their lives as they see favourable to themselves. Give and inch, take a mile....grass is greener etc etc. They will do what works for them and what we allow them to do. They will act if and when it is favourable to them. This is not dominance but rather opportunistic. Are they full of their own importance....you bet they are. This would make them more arrogant (to varying degrees) not dominant.

A dog who does not listen is making some life choices and will deal with the consequences of his decisions later.

They are doing what is favourable to themselves, which is exerting control. They shouldn't be, it is dominance. They should be doing what I say. They know I am their leader, boss, but they shrug it off as though it doesn't matter.

[Kelpie-i]

Yes, I do view it as dominance. Dominance is simply control and power. When I did something my parents told me not to I did so because I didn't care about their control or power, they had none over me. It was an act of dominance. They weren't the "boss" of me, I was my own "boss".

Exactly, you were your OWN boss, you were full of your own importance. It was an act of defiance, not dominance.

They are doing what is favourable to themselves, which is exerting control. They shouldn't be, it is dominance. They should be doing what I say. They know I am their leader, boss, but they shrug it off as though it doesn't matter.

How is making the choice between, say, coming to you and continuing to sniff a dead rat, exerting control over you?

In the animal world, dominance is the control of group and resources for the purpose of survival and reproduction. How is a dog not listening to you an act of domimance? Sorry LM, but I fail to see...but heck, what do I know right! Have you been hanging around with protection dog trainers who always talk about "rank"??

Let's just agree to disagree.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Just Midol]

I disagree with your definitions of dominance and defiance though

You're discussing dominance hierarchy, I'm discussing dominance. They are two different concepts to me.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Just Midol

[Erny]

When you were a teenager and didn't listen to your parents, were you being dominant or just defiant?

Isn't "defiance" the test ..... and with increased frequency of winning, "dominance" the possible result?

From the dictionary :

Defiance : 1. open or bold resistance to or disregard for authority, opposition, or power. 2. a challenging attitude or behaviour; challenge.

Dominant : 1. having primary control, authority, or influence; governing; ruling. 2. predominant or primary; 3. occupying a commanding position.

So, defiance can turn to dominance if the affect of defiance has an influence of control over the actions of the other being.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Erny

[SkySoaringMagpie]

So, defiance can turn to dominance if the affect of defiance has an influence of control over the actions of the other being.

This is where I turn into a martial arts hippy. A dog does not have an influence of control over me. If one of my dogs doesn't do what I ask I'll assess the situation to work out what went wrong, but I would only be subject to an influence of control if I lacked self control. It is still up to me how I respond.

[Kelpie-i]

Isn't "defiance" the test ..... and with increased frequency of winning, "dominance" the possible result?

From the dictionary :

Defiance : 1. open or bold resistance to or disregard for authority, opposition, or power. 2. a challenging attitude or behaviour; challenge.

Dominant : 1. having primary control, authority, or influence; governing; ruling. 2. predominant or primary; 3. occupying a commanding position.

So, defiance can turn to dominance if the affect of defiance has an influence of control over the actions of the other being.

Can, but not always necessarily so Erny, but I get where you are coming from.

I still cannot see how a dog that does not listen can be labelled "dominant"!!! Testing, defiant...yes...but not dominant.

My kelpie who chose to take chase on a lone sheep one day would not come back no matter how much I called her, her drive took over and she was gone, yet she normally has a beautiful recall even around the sheep and works mobs of sheep without any problems. Was she being dominant in this case or did she make a decision based on what was more favourable to her?

ETA: I wouldn't even say she was being defiant as her decision was instinctual based and after much training, has not attempted it again.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Erny]

Can, but not always necessarily so Erny, but I get where you are coming from.

Yes - I agree .... "can" is the operative word.

I still cannot see how a dog that does not listen can be labeled "dominant"!!! Testing, defiant...yes...but not dominant.

Again, I agree. The dog might not listen because he is dominant, but not listening doesn't have to mean that he is dominant. "Not listening" can also merely be a training issue .... the dog has learnt that it doesn't have to listen.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Erny

[Just Midol]

So, defiance can turn to dominance if the affect of defiance has an influence of control over the actions of the other being.

This is where I turn into a martial arts hippy. A dog does not have an influence of control over me. If one of my dogs doesn't do what I ask I'll assess the situation to work out what went wrong, but I would only be subject to an influence of control if I lacked self control. It is still up to me how I respond.

Does the DOG think he has influence or control over you?

If he ignores what you said, then he has just gained control. Yes?