Using Fetch And A Tennis Ball As A Reward

[dogdude]

Prey drive has nothing to do with it - in the space of 2 minutes you can do far more repetitions rewarding with food than you can by throwing a ball where you might only get 3 throws and 3 behaviours in the same time period. You may not get the same attitude using food but you can do more repetitions.

I just don't see a large disadvantage. I have never trained to do x repetitions / minute.

I think if there is an advantage in using food to teach new things, its because it can be used to lessen drive in a high prey driven dog in order for it to learn in a more relaxed state of mind.

[Just Midol]

The one down side to using tug or balls as a reward when a dog is learning is that you can't do as many repetitions and playing takes much longer than delivering a piece of food.

I guess that would depend on how you train, and what level of drive your dog has.

The one advantage of prey drive is its usually stronger than food based drive.

Horses for courses.

Prey drive has nothing to do with it - in the space of 2 minutes you can do far more repetitions rewarding with food than you can by throwing a ball where you might only get 3 throws and 3 behaviours in the same time period. You may not get the same attitude using food but you can do more repetitions.

Even if it takes longer why would you use food if you know the dog would prefer a play or prey? It seems kind of stupid. ETA: Unless food is enough of a motivator I guess.

The one thing the NDTF has drilled into me is that the primary motivator is what the dog wants. We don't chose what the dog wants, the dog does.

----

I wouldn't throw the ball away from me, I'd bounce it and the dog can grab it from just infront of me, that's enough.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Just Midol

[Luke W]

When free shaping, you tend to want to keep the reinforcement rate very high - that's one area where I guess food is particularly useful.

I can't remember which book I read it in - Culture Clash, Don't Shoot the Dog..?

They were talking about rapid fire rewards: more than 30 per minute - it's hard to get that frequency with Tug or fetch I guess.

BTW Midol - I understand what you are saying but you do in some sense get to choose what the dog likes - it's possible over time to transfer value from one item to another. You teach the dog to like tug for example.

That's what I'm trying to do with Barkly - transfer his love of diced steak to tug. And it's working.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Luke W

[Just Midol]

But will you ever be able to get his desire for the tug higher than the food, genuine question here as I don't know your dog I know in my sibes, if I tried hard enough they would go for a tug but I know they'll never prefer the tug over food, as much as I want them to.

I wouldn't train 30 per minute anyway, so that speed is irrelevant for me. I just don't do my repititions that fast but then I also don't drill train my dogs, once they know the command (which should only take 5-30 reps depending on how I am doing it) then I "train" the command on our walks so using a tennis ball and fetch wouldn't hinder my progress. If my dogs would drill, I'd do it

An example here is with recalls I've figured out an awesome way to reward my dog. They can't run away from me, but can run to me. If you read the threads on Sibes I started a few weeks ago you'd know they love running & it's an intrinsic reward, so the actual recall has turned into a reward for them. Granted, it isn't proofed yet but it's a start. I am considering teaching them a specific send away that allows them to run, so that I can use their desire to run as a reward for other things. If they want to do it, then I should use it!

My current belief is that you should use what the dog wants the most at that given time. So if I was building my dogs desire for a tug I'd either not train while I was building drive or I would continue using their primary motivator whilst training and keep the drive building seperately.

You should try just throwing the ball at the ground near your feet so it bounces, not so it goes 20-30m away. I did this at the NDTF block training with one of the drivey dogs (a border terrier or something) and I could reward him with the toy and have it back in my hand in under 5-6 seconds. I could have thrown it 10-20m but with this dog it didn't matter, he just wanted the capture. 5-6 seconds still isn't 30 in a minute but it's not too bad.

I've never done a lot of free shaping. I hope to try and use it to teach gizmo to play dead as a practice.

ETA: Obviously you know I am also a beginner in drive training, so not only am I trying to offer some rather simplistic advice based on what's worked in my limited experiences but I want to hear what you think of what I say (that sentence sounded really, really bad.)

Edited February 28, 2009 by Just Midol

[huski]

Midol that has to be one of the most diplomatic and helpful posts I have ever seen you type

[Luke W]

Susan Garrett isn't perfectly clear on this one.

Tug = food --- yes, she says it can be done.

Tug > food --- it seems counter-intuitive but maybe. Perhaps by gradual withdrawal of food as a reward, it takes on less importance to the dog? I'm not sure.

You point about not training with tug is a very good one. Build the desire first (using premack) then introduce it into training in a very low distraction environment first. Never offer your dog tug as a reward unless you are sure he's going to take it.

Because I want to train for agility and obedience, I guess I need to train a little differently to you. Have the dog run away from me is a requirement!

You point about short distance fetch is a good one too. I tried thorwing the ball only a cople of meters away, I could have the ball back in my hand pretty quickly.

BTW - free shaping can be fun - 101 things with a box is a good start.

Thanks for Midol (and everyone!) for bouncing ideas around.

BTW - I left training class early today - he was unfocused, I was getting frustrated, we weren't succeeding. I tried increasing the reinforcement rates but still struggled to keep him focused. Rather than continually fail, I called it quits and brought him home. He's in his crate now, thinking about what he's done

[Just Midol]

I've been meaning to grab that book but I haven't gotten around to it. It sounds fantastic.

Our day on shaping and such was spent with the owner of southern cross animal stars, a lady called Julie and her dog flick. It was great, the dog was just so happy to perform. Incredibly intelligent dog and uber cute. Made me want a BC

http://www.southerncrossanimalstars.com.au...k27s_trick.html

The amount of people who keep training once their dog has lost interest in their motivator astounds me. I noticed it when I was with the NDTF at the first centre. The dogs lost interest in the ball or tug yet they try and force the thing in the dogs mouth. Same with food. "Hey, this dog doesn't want my food anymore... Maybe if I force his mouth open and shove it in he'll enjoy it" - it was driving me insane!

Huski, why thank you

[PAX]

The amount of people who keep training once their dog has lost interest in their motivator astounds me. I noticed it when I was with the NDTF at the first centre. The dogs lost interest in the ball or tug yet they try and force the thing in the dogs mouth. Same with food. "Hey, this dog doesn't want my food anymore... Maybe if I force his mouth open and shove it in he'll enjoy it" - it was driving me insane!

/quote]

I have seen this too heaps of times, I think it's because the people so desperately want more from the training day, which is good, you just need to remind them that their dog is over it and give them another training challenge that's dogless. Signals and footwork is good for a dogless challenge, so is clicker training another person to do an unknown task.

[dogdude]

Lots of those people enter trials too. How many dogs do you see at trials that are just not interested.

It all starts at dog obedience clubs, and their hour long classes.

[PAX]

DD, that's true, but thanks to people like Gina O many clubs do not do that anymore and focus on ways to train that are motivating for the dog.

Are you actively doing anything to change the way people train their dogs at a club level?

Sorry to go Off topic but you what dog people are like.

Edited March 1, 2009 by PAX

[dogdude]

Pax:

That may be the case in WA, but sadly not in Victoria.

I think an hour long class should be 45 minutes theory, and 15 practical.

[dogdude]

Are you actively doing anything to change the way people train their dogs at a club level?

Sorry to go Off topic but you what dog people are like

.

Not sure where or why you pulled this crap from, but I don't owe the dog world anything, nor you an explanation.

[PAX]

I agree, one hour is way too long. But taking the things that Gina O said on board we were able to change our club, our club was very old school and we are in regional NSW.

We got enough new members to block all the oldies and we changed the club.

It is one thing to whinge about CC clubs but it is another to get in there and make changes that benefit the dogs and the people that want to join the club and the people and dogs of the local community..

You can incorporate tricks and heaps of theory in a fun way if you have the motivation to make change.

In a regional area people do not want to travel for ten minutes training. If you keep the people happy they will keep training.

[ness]

I just decided to not bother putting my youngster into obedience classes until this year. She is now a few days short of 11 months old. Having said that I have at the beginning of this year joined a pet dog training club. We are in their top class but its not structured the same way as a traditional obedience class. The dogs have mats to sit on when you are listening to instruction and I will release mine to her mat when we have finished a particular task. There is usually a small heelwork task but the rest is tricks and other things. Class runs for about 45 minutes. I guess I am aware to not drill her and I'll regularly send her to her mat for a break after having done an exercise. She is getting good practice at having an on/off switch.

I would say a 1 hour old style class with lots of block heelwork would be sure fire way to switch the dog off but I wouldn't necessarily say a 1 hour class is the issue.

[Tonymc]

Ptolomy, prey drive has everything to do with it!!!I am with Dogdude totally on this one.I would much sooner throw a ball for a dog in drive than have to feed a panlicker.

Balls,tugs so on are great training tools.I use a variety of things like old firehose,tubes,rope,old wheat bags,bottles,balls and so on.

I am not a fan of tennis balls but balls such as Orbee's are great.

I throw a ball for a dog and yes the reward is coming from me.The Dog is acessing his drive through my actions, so he learns I hold the key to drive satisfaction for him.It is exactly the same principle as one of our dogs working sheep.The Dog knows he gets acess to Sheep through me.

A Ball is a great aid for lead training,changes of direction,focus and recall.

As far as dogs running off with Balls.Its up to us to be smater than the Dogs we are training.A dog running off with a ball is not a big deal.Simply work on recall and use two balls. Tony

[Drumbeat]

DD, that's true, but thanks to people like Gina O many clubs do not do that anymore and focus on ways to train that are motivating for the dog.

Last year I was attending the training club where Gina O is an advisor and classes are still one hour long with food the only motivator used

[ness]

I think its pretty common place that most of the triallers in WA don't actually train their trialling dogs in class at a club. Just speaking from the people who I know they use the clubs as a place to train with distractions but never consider putting there dogs into classes other than for that purpose. So there new dogs would never learn the exercises in a class context.