LilBailey Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Ok so I got claification on the Positional Cue thing we learnt at the GD week. Now I'm a bit lost on Serps and Threadles. I THINK I have it right. (well I got the dog over nicley) I'm a little concernd I'm Flicking though. HELP ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 You have found one of the inconsistencies in the GD system Basically, using his system, the way you send the dog over the 3rd jump in a serp would be a big NO-NO anywhere else on the course If you are bringing your off hand up to bring the dog in over the 2nd jump, then bringing the near hand up again to send them back away over the 3rd jump then you are doing it right. If you are running a course and want to send the dog laterally away by bringing that hand up, you are flicking them... makes no sense I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBailey Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yeah thats kinds what I thought. I did a threadle last night and felt I was flicking a bit over the second, but then the body turns so I don't quite know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Makes perfect sense to me and I don't see any inconsistency. Maybe you need to watch his videos more carefully or attend a seminar, either GD's or SG's. Sometimes the perceived inconsistency is only apparent in the incorrect application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) You have found one of the inconsistencies in the GD system Basically, using his system, the way you send the dog over the 3rd jump in a serp would be a big NO-NO anywhere else on the course If you are bringing your off hand up to bring the dog in over the 2nd jump, then bringing the near hand up again to send them back away over the 3rd jump then you are doing it right. If you are running a course and want to send the dog laterally away by bringing that hand up, you are flicking them... makes no sense I know And would only be considered an inconsistency by someone not actively running or fully understanding his system I would imagine. Which is why it makes no sense to some. LB, I would recommend you look at the SG 'One Jump' DVD - and watch how she trains serp foundation - middle jump first , where the dog is rewarded for coming to 'threadle arm' (as she refers to it on both serp and threadle handling' ) - if you understand blind cross body line, you will see that it is incorrect to describe this as an 'off arm' - as the BCBL has changed when you present the threadle arm - the position of reinforcement zone has also changed, which is what the dog is driving to. Also remember in this system, change of arm means change of line. (she demonstrates that pretty well on the DVD too) To further take away any inconsistency when using serp handling, you only ever present threadle arm when you are then going to turn the dog back in the other direction as you do with a serpentine or threadle. (or even a RFP ) SG goes through this on the DVD and explains it way better than I possibly can. Plus she demonstrates the way that she trains serpentine from the beginning. (Backchain jumps 2 and 3 first to build up the understanding, before adding jump 1) Last time she was here, one thing she stressed was that every time you used a threadle arm to change the dog's line - you immediately then changed the line again in the other direction (again, imagine a serpentine in various arrangements) Even if you stop and reward your dog in the middle for coming to hand if you have to. If you don't do this, then you have indeed created an inconsistency. And threadle arm is not used in the Derrett/Garrett system in any other way. You wouldn't use it to change your dog's line and then continue straight on this line as is used in some other systems. Running in this system your dog should eventually understand ' if a threadle arm is presented I change my line and will then also be changing my line again immediately afterward.' Imagining it as 'one move' rather than 3 separate jumps should take away the notion of the third jump being a flick. But if you are seriously considering handling in this system, break it down and do the foundation for each 'move' first - takes some time but well worth it IMO. Good Luck! Edited to Add : Good advice Pippi Edited February 26, 2009 by kelpiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Makes perfect sense to me and I don't see any inconsistency. Maybe you need to watch his videos more carefully or attend a seminar, either GD's or SG's. Sometimes the perceived inconsistency is only apparent in the incorrect application. I don't see the inconsistency either Serps: use your outside hand to bring the dog over jump 2. this opens up your reinforcement zone and pulls the dogover jump 2. For a serp you are still moving. To send dog over jump 3, you use your near hand to push them over again, sending your reinforcement zone/ BCBL in the direction the dog is going. If you used your far hand to send over jump 3, that would be a flick away Threadles: Similar system, although you are STOPPING and allowing your dog to come into the reinforcement zone before you again step toward jump to and the dog is again chasing reinforcement zone. Makes sense to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBailey Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Woo Hoo. I was right in my thinking after all. Now I just have to get it all right in my Jumping run on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Ummm I should point out that I do actually use and understand the GD system. I am just not completely brainwashed like some people are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) I don't do or understand the GD system, but can certainly identify with the brainwashing comment. We were discussing it recently on DST. Right now there is a band of devotees in NSW who do seem brainwashed to me after attending the recent GD seminar. I don't have a problem with people discussing systems as they walk the course or analysing other's runs, but there are a few who seem to be going out of their way to tell anyone who is not using GD that they are wrong & inconsistent. Not only is it rude & disruptive, but they are yet to prove via results that their system is more successful. I don't have a problem with the GD system, I don't understand it, but it is obviously successful if executed correctly. I was told that at the NSW seminar he showed videos of other handling systems & pointed out why they were inconsistent. If you look worldwide, there are many different, successful systems but I don't see those using the GD system dominating the winning either here or elsewhere. The brainwashed here would have you think otherwise...and they saw video to prove it . off my soapbox now, I just thought I would try to explain some of DeltaCharlie's comment as it seems to be a common feeling here in NSW atm. Edited February 26, 2009 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Vickie: I don't do or understand the GD system, but can certainly identify with the brainwashing comment. We were discussing it recently on DST. Right now there is a band of devotees in NSW who do seem brainwashed to me after attending the recent GD seminar. I don't have a problem with people discussing systems as they walk the course or analysing other's runs, but there are a few who seem to be going out of their way to tell anyone who is not using GD that they are wrong & inconsistent. Not only is it rude & disruptive, but they are yet to prove via results that their system is more successful. Don't worry Vickie, it will only last until the Rhonda Carter seminars are held.. then that will be flavour of the month. All teachers can attract fanatics but yes, the cult like behaviour is annoying. Happens in the horse world too. There are people around who'll tell you that Pat Parelli is the only person who really knows how to connect with train and train a horse. I'm sure there are plenty of Olympians and International competition winners snorting into their weeties at that thought. I'm sure the people he got most of his ideas from just smile wryly. My personal view is that everyone has something to teach but you've got to use what works for you and your dog. Consistency IS important but it's nice to have plenty of tools in your tool box. People who are secure in their knowledge that they've got a system that works for them don't need to rubbish other systems/trainers. Edited February 26, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Don't worry Vickie, it will only last until the Rhonda Carter seminars are held.. then that will be flavour of the month. Really? Is that how you felt as someone who didn't attend? Maybe I need to take my blinkers off Have attendees of Ronda's seminars over the last 2 years interfered with/commented on your handling decisions? I have certainly never heard her rubbish another handler's system. Edited February 26, 2009 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Don't worry Vickie, it will only last until the Rhonda Carter seminars are held.. then that will be flavour of the month. Really? Is that how you felt as someone who didn't attend? Have attendees of Ronda's seminars over the last 2 years interfered with/commented on your handling decisions. Maybe I need to take my blinkers off. I've sat in Pat Parelli seminars listening to him telling folk why other trainers are useless. Just a general observation on some returnees from seminars Vickie. I didn't have anyone in particular in mind. There is a definitely a flavour of the month factor in agility. If a trainer has an ego, that doesn't mean their methods are better or worse. I probably just means I won't like them much as a person. My view is most good trainers are happy to be judged on their results and let their achievements speak for themselves. There are exceptions and frankly most of them are male. At trials I don't allow people to interfere with my handling decisions and I ignore unsolicited comments. I go out there with a plan and I try to achieve it. I don't need someone telling me I stuffed up or should have done it differently. I tune them out or walk away. I'm too small fry for people to worry about anyway. I don't know about you but I don't need someone to tell me when I get it wrong.. it's pretty damn obvious! Edited February 26, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwag Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) I agree with alot of vickie has said in regards to this. Yes teachers do attract fanatics altho most wont go out of their way to tell you that the way you choose to walk/run a course and execute your run is all wrong and shouldnt be done like that. Each to their own, and i am yet to see many of the people who execute the GD methods run their courses accordingly, also saying that given many of the courses we run dont suit his execution i am surprised that many of the people who adhere to his type of handling actually run these courses, it goes against alot of his handling. I beleive SG mentioned if she cant run her course the way she has trained then she wont run it at all........ I have watched people who swear by him and yet alot of what i see is some very confused dogs out on course, it doesnt take rocket science to see this. Execution is everything....... I dont use the GD methods with my dogs as it does not suit the way i run them, but i dont expect to be told what i am doing it not right either, it becomes very annoying after a while with the same people stating this. Each to their own, no ONE way is necessarily the right way and the only way to be doing things. I do agree that every tool helps but consistancy is a must regardless of who you follow and how you run. Edited February 26, 2009 by Tailwag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Well I respectfully disagree. For me it's not brainwashing and I'm still open to other ideas. But the GD/ SG system makes snese to me and that is why I use it. 3 simple rules that I can follow as a trainer. Now I don't think of myself as a good trainer or handler, and that is a detriment to my dogs, but I certainly don't see everyone who follows a GD/SG system as being 'brainwashed'. I don't think it's right in anyone's books to tell you if you are walking a course you are doing it 'wrong'.... unless they were saying "Oh this is how XXXX would handle", when they are completely wrong/ misunderstood..... I am sure you would feel the same if you were a GD supporter and someone said to you - oh that is completely wrong according to XXXX...... JMO Edited February 26, 2009 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 but I certainly don't see everyone who follows a GD/SG system as being 'brainwashed'. not everyone Leopuppy, as with everything, it is the loud ones you notice who give the others a bad name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) but I certainly don't see everyone who follows a GD/SG system as being 'brainwashed'. not everyone Leopuppy, as with everything, it is the loud ones you notice who give the others a bad name. Its my observation that those who give unsolicited advice would be the most loathe to have it given to them. I have had a quiet conversation with someone who gave a loud running critique of my run to her mate while I was in the ring doing it. I just asked how that person would have felt if someone had done it to her. It's never happened again. Of course if the critique had been highly flattering, I probably wouldn't have said anything Edited February 26, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Back on topic: Best piece of advice I ever got on serps and threadles was to stop seeing them as curves and try to picture them as straight lines. It sure does tighten up your handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBailey Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I can see how people may be brainwashed by a particular training idea. Personaly I think that the GD system could well work for my dog as well as me. she takes a lot of notice of body language and I struggle with that. So the easy rules of BCBL, and Positional Cue's make it seem a lot easier to me. As for trashing other systems, I didn't feel he did that. Just showed some clips of things that went wrong and how if you used his system that shouldn't happen. Back on Topic: It is the straight lines that confuses me. Arh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I am still trying to understand the differences between handling systems Does anyone have clips of sequences/trials etc where someone handles in GD system and someone handles differently so I could see the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBailey Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm not sure you would really see a diffrence when watching some one run it??? It's more like a set of rules you follow in the way you handle a course. If some one could explain it would be good. I'm at work and can't type out long posts, I'm to likley to get caught up in it and have a boss walk up behind me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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