Walking The Dog A La Cesar Milan

[sandgrubber]

I've been working my way through Cesar Milan DVDs and am confused about walking. He consistently uses a very short lead and holds the dog close. Also implies that proper "mental exercise" requires that the human be dominant and in the lead. He says walking is important for letting the dog be a dog.

I have relatively well behaved, relaxed gun dogs with no issues regarding aggression, destructive behaviour or the other problems that are featured in Dog Whisperer episodes. Most of them were raised by their natural mother . . . as well as by me. I have always walked them as a pack, either off lead or on 1.8 m leads. They go ahead of me, though one usually lags behind. I let them smell things . . . as I view sniffing as an important mental exercise for a scent-oriented dog . . . and part of letting a dog be a dog. They get corrected if they pull, which they don't do much, but otherwise the walk is pretty much free form. . . .apart from sometimes having to untangle leads.

Is the disciplined walk always better . . . or is it just an excellent tool for dogs who are showing a need for guidance. That is, should I feel guilty about the fact that mine walk more like the "before" training dogs than the "after" training dogs insofar as walking style goes.

[Cosmolo]

My dogs get to sniff and be out in front provided they don't pull on the lead so i don't think you have a problem

[Nekhbet]

If you watch when he brings his own dogs they walk around off lead, behind, sniff trees etc.

He would be holding them close in order to give prompt corrections, be aware of body language and have better control over any situation that arises then being 6 feet away. He also becomes aware of potential situations possibly before the dog does and hence can compensate for it.

[dee lee]

I have found I NEED to keep my (psycho and DA) dog in heel for 90% of our walk in order to stop her taking charge.

I recently decided to teach her to "free walk" and allow her a limited distance around me where she can do whatever she likes as long as she doesnt pull and keeps walking.

I did this to reduce her stress around other dogs as I am trying to desensitise her.

It has worked to a point but I found her dominance on walks has increased by doing this and she has become a pain to walk so I have reverted back to heeling.

Really I think it would depend on the dog, your dogs have no need for as much discipline as mine- believe me its not by choice, I'd much rather your situation.

[Kavik]

Unless I am actually training or passing another dog etc I let the dogs do what they like as long as they don't pull or stop longer than it takes to get to the end of the lead and they are not allowed to tangle me up so generally stay on the left side.

Since I want precision attention heeling when I do heel, I don't do it for the whole walk as there is no way they could concentrate for that long and it is hard work and not a 'walk'.

[Quickasyoucan]

Yeah, I'm with the loose lead theory too. Jake can walk in front so long as he doesn't pull. Though if I am somewhere crowded or with loads of dogs, makes sense to have a shorter lead so you don't inconvenience other people and can handle any difficult situations quickly like someones dog not being friendly and the like.

Maybe Cesar does it that way when he is trying to correct behaviour.

[corvus]

You know, what I don't understand is why a dog would be trying to dominate you on a walk in the first place. Every dog I've ever walked has been pretty intensely focused on exploring and reading the pee-mail. I talk to them a lot and they listen, but they don't bother looking at me when there's so much else going on. They do whatever I suggest if they think it will get them where they want to go.

As for other dogs... well, maybe a dog sees another dog while out walking and gets stroppy, but my question is why? Why worry about dominance when you are in neutral territory for the most part and you may well never even get to meet this dog let alone meet it at another stage. And just what is there to want first dibs on when you are out walking?

Sorry, off topic perhaps. I was just struck by this thought suddenly.

[sandgrubber]

You know, what I don't understand is why a dog would be trying to dominate you on a walk in the first place. Every dog I've ever walked has been pretty intensely focused on exploring and reading the pee-mail. I talk to them a lot and they listen, but they don't bother looking at me when there's so much else going on. They do whatever I suggest if they think it will get them where they want to go.

As for other dogs... well, maybe a dog sees another dog while out walking and gets stroppy, but my question is why? Why worry about dominance when you are in neutral territory for the most part and you may well never even get to meet this dog let alone meet it at another stage. And just what is there to want first dibs on when you are out walking?

Sorry, off topic perhaps. I was just struck by this thought suddenly.

equally off thread . . . I lived in Germany with a dog for a couple years . . . will never forget an old lady in the park where I walked my dog who described the activity as "reading the doggy newspaper".

[huski]

As for other dogs... well, maybe a dog sees another dog while out walking and gets stroppy, but my question is why? Why worry about dominance when you are in neutral territory for the most part and you may well never even get to meet this dog let alone meet it at another stage. And just what is there to want first dibs on when you are out walking?

Micha reacts to other dogs when out on a walk because strange dogs are what triggers his fear aggression. It doesn't matter what environment it is in.

[dee lee]

As for other dogs... well, maybe a dog sees another dog while out walking and gets stroppy, but my question is why? Why worry about dominance when you are in neutral territory for the most part and you may well never even get to meet this dog let alone meet it at another stage. And just what is there to want first dibs on when you are out walking?

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about.

My dog is "on alert" as soon as we walk out the house. If left to her own devices she will pull like a freight train in the direction SHE wants to go, and has absolutely zilch regard for where I might be. I have scars from a rope burn and a past broken finger from this.

SHE tries to be the leader not me despite very hard work at maintaining pack leadership at home (she is fine there). I assume this is due to something in the past prior to me adopting her and I have had little success in altering this. Working with a trainer I have adopted a "management" strategy to cope and this involves keeping her close to me and forcing her to acknowledge where I am.

As for other dogs, her DA behaviour is not dependant on meeting the other dog- I have had her lungeing and gnashing her teeth at a dog across the road and some way away. If another dog is about to pass me in the street if she is next to me I am able to control her.

How would you suggest I proceed?

Edited February 26, 2009 by ✽deelee

[huski]

As for other dogs... well, maybe a dog sees another dog while out walking and gets stroppy, but my question is why? Why worry about dominance when you are in neutral territory for the most part and you may well never even get to meet this dog let alone meet it at another stage. And just what is there to want first dibs on when you are out walking?

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about.

My dog is "on alert" as soon as we walk out the house. If left to her own devices she will pull like a freight train in the direction SHE wants to go, and has absolutely zilch regard for where I might be. I have scars from a rope burn and a past broken finger from this.

SHE tries to be the leader not me despite very hard work at maintaining pack leadership at home (she is fine there). I assume this is due to something in the past prior to me adopting her and I have had little success in altering this. Working with a trainer I have adopted a "management" strategy to cope and this involves keeping her close to me and forcing her to acknowledge where I am.

I know what you mean, Deelee.

I don't let my dogs pull on the leash because it shows a complete disregard for anything other than where they want to go. My dogs do not control which direction we walk in, I do - otherwise we'd end up walking across the road in busy traffic! I don't like to have a dog ignore me, or only comply to my 'suggestions' when it suits them. When I tell Daisy or Mish to look, they look, and I expect 100% focus on me. I am happy to let them walk a bit in front, or let Daisy sniff things as we walk by them but they cannot pull and when I command them to pay attention to me, they are expected to do it. I put a lot of work into teaching my dogs that I am the most interesting thing out there, and they obey me because they want to and know they get the best rewards when they do

[lovemesideways]

You know, what I don't understand is why a dog would be trying to dominate you on a walk in the first place.

Why? There are a lot of theories as to why the do it.

Its a unknown environment so the pack status changes.

Or it could simple be that the dog has never been taught what to do on a lead, so pulling is just what they've done all their life.

Every dog I've ever walked has been pretty intensely focused on exploring and reading the pee-mail. I talk to them a lot and they listen, but they don't bother looking at me when there's so much else going on. They do whatever I suggest if they think it will get them where they want to go.

For you that may be fine but I for example, find the unacceptable in a dog I walk. If I'm walking a dog then I demand that they always keep one eye on me. They can sniff and romp around all they like ONLY if they stay with the boundary of the leash. They never pull on that lead.

They do what I suggest because thats what the rules of the leash are. Theres no negotiation.

As for other dogs... well, maybe a dog sees another dog while out walking and gets stroppy, but my question is why? Why worry about dominance when you are in neutral territory for the most part and you may well never even get to meet this dog let alone meet it at another stage.

Because by allowing your dog to react and be aggressive. They're succeeding in what they think is the right course of action to take when they see another dog. If you Allow them to react this way, or take the wrong course of action, like petting and trying to "sooth" the dog, your most likely going to increase that behaviour.

Then what happens, you become afraid of seeing dogs, you get tense, in response your dog gets tense. You see someone in the distance, you freak out thinking your dog will try and attack. Your dog feels this fear and thinks "Oh shit there is something to be afraid of!! I Was right" Rarara bark bark lunge bark

And then from there its all down hill. Its not just about this one dog they might see that they'll never see again. Its still a "person with a dog on lead" so any time they see a "person with a dog on lead" it can get the same reaction, it doesn't have to be the same person with the same dog.

Say for example, you have a fearful dog who reacts to other dogs with aggression, because of his fear.

Every time he gets within a certain distance of another dog he goes off, Barking lunging snarling.

You would think that if you walked past that same dog, every day, at that same distance, he would eventually learn that theres no threat?

Only if you don't let him react!

Otherwise, if you could speak to that dog, and you said "Hey mate, you've gone past this same dog, every day, at this same distance, why do you keep reacting, theres obviously no threat?"

The dogs reply "Because my reaction is the only thing that keeps me safe!"

They believe that that basically, if they don't strike first, then the other dog will attack, and the only reason they're safe, is because of their reaction.

And just what is there to want first dibs on when you are out walking?

Its not about wanting first dibs on something. Or about wanting to get somewhere first.

Its that the dog doesn't have any respect for the leash and what it means. They think, this leash is just some stupid thing my humans attachs to me that means I have to pull a bit harder.

Dont know if I answered any questions or just blabbed on a bit about nothing! Oh well

Edited February 26, 2009 by JenIsAwesome

[sas]

If you don't have any issues with your dogs and they're not pulling I'm confused to what you're asking...

Ceaser himself allows his dogs out in front on leashed walks if they're behaving and in the right frame of mind,

Edited February 26, 2009 by sas

[sandgrubber]

If you don't have any issues with your dogs and they're not pulling I'm confused to what you're asking...

Ceaser himself allows his dogs out in front on leashed walks if they're behaving and in the right frame of mind,

I haven't seen this in any of the 26 programs I've watched so far. Can you tell me where to see frames of Cesar walking relaxed dogs without discipline?

I can get self conscious. After seeing some 50 examples (roughly two dogs per show x 26 shows) where "good" was tight lead and "bad" was long loose lead, like I use, it's easy to get the message . . . in this case, the wrong message.

[persephone]

What you are watching is Cesar showing owners how to walk problem dogs. I have heard him say many times to be relaxed, and don't have tension on the leash..

Our dogs are not allowed to walk in front ...they walk behind-or alongside where they can sniff/play whatever(they are not on leash..we are in the bush, on our own property)

When I walk a couple of them on a long line... they are also to walk behind or alongside- not forging out front.

[corvus]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about. :rolleyes:

That's why I'm asking.

My dog is "on alert" as soon as we walk out the house. If left to her own devices she will pull like a freight train in the direction SHE wants to go, and has absolutely zilch regard for where I might be. I have scars from a rope burn and a past broken finger from this.

SHE tries to be the leader not me despite very hard work at maintaining pack leadership at home (she is fine there).

Okay, I hear you, but what I'm wondering is why is her disregard of you so surprising and clearly disresptecful to you when she is just trying to go where she wants to go in an exciting place? If I were her, I'd be pulling like a freight train as well, especially if it has a history of working, which it probably did to begin with. And I would be ignoring you because frankly you're boring comapared to the rest of the exciting world. That's not an attack on you in particular, just using it as an example. If you are not as interesting than why would the dog pay any attention to you?

As for other dogs, her DA behaviour is not dependant on meeting the other dog- I have had her lungeing and gnashing her teeth at a dog across the road and some way away. If another dog is about to pass me in the street if she is next to me I am able to control her.

But is she aggressive because she wants to dominate these dogs or is she aggressive because she wants them to stay away from her and being aggressive has achieved that in the past?

How would you suggest I proceed?

I dunno! I wasn't picking on you because I thought I had a better answer. What you said just provoked another thought. But to address a problem really successfully it helps to know why the dog is behaving the way it is. I've never had to deal with this problem, so I'm not going to suggest a different way.

[corvus]

You know, what I don't understand is why a dog would be trying to dominate you on a walk in the first place.

Why? There are a lot of theories as to why the do it.

Its a unknown environment so the pack status changes.

Or it could simple be that the dog has never been taught what to do on a lead, so pulling is just what they've done all their life.

Pack status changes? Why?

Pulling because they've done it all their life is not really about dominating, though, right?

If I'm walking a dog then I demand that they always keep one eye on me. They can sniff and romp around all they like ONLY if they stay with the boundary of the leash. They never pull on that lead.

They do what I suggest because thats what the rules of the leash are. Theres no negotiation.

Well, each to their own. If my dogs pull I stop and we don't go again until the pulling stops. I took it one step further by adding a cue. I don't have to stop much anymore as I just have to say "hold up" and pup slows down. I don't need one of his eyes on me for that to work. Is there a reason why you would need the dog to look at you if they are doing it anyway?

Because by allowing your dog to react and be aggressive. They're succeeding in what they think is the right course of action to take when they see another dog. If you Allow them to react this way, or take the wrong course of action, like petting and trying to "sooth" the dog, your most likely going to increase that behaviour.

Then what happens, you become afraid of seeing dogs, you get tense, in response your dog gets tense. You see someone in the distance, you freak out thinking your dog will try and attack. Your dog feels this fear and thinks "Oh shit there is something to be afraid of!! I Was right" Rarara bark bark lunge bark

And then from there its all down hill. Its not just about this one dog they might see that they'll never see again. Its still a "person with a dog on lead" so any time they see a "person with a dog on lead" it can get the same reaction, it doesn't have to be the same person with the same dog.

Uh huh, I totally agree. But is this dominance? Did it even start because of dominance? That was my question. You answered it yourself in the following paragraph with the answer that it was fear. I agree with you. :rolleyes:

Its not about wanting first dibs on something. Or about wanting to get somewhere first.

Its that the dog doesn't have any respect for the leash and what it means. They think, this leash is just some stupid thing my humans attachs to me that means I have to pull a bit harder.

Okay, but why should the dog respect the leash? If you were a dog, why would you respect a leash? I wouldn't unless someone taught me it was a good idea to. Case in point, our dog Kivi and his "hold up" suggestion. If he heeds it we keep walking, but if he doesn't we stop. This was easy when he was a puppy, of course. A couple of times he's raced off after something else and doesn't hear the "hold up" or doesn't care, and I don't blame him. Ultimately, he respects the leash because he has learnt that tension on the leash results in him going nowhere. If a dog has learnt that tension on the leash results in them going somewhere, then like you say they will get all superstitious about it and think they have to pull to go somewhere in the first place.

I'm not trying to attack anyone or any methods here, I'm just thinking out loud and hoping people will answer my musings and provoke further thought.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Pulling because they've done it all their life is not really about dominating, though, right?

It's about who's in charge. The leader determines where you go. If you get to pull your handler whereever you want to go, who do you think is in charge? To some dogs a human is simply a brake that slows their travels. I see dogs like that progress round my suburb every day.

Corvus I really think you need to meet more dogs. I'm sure as a zoologist you'd never make conclusions about species behaviour based on one or two individuals would you?

The fact that you have a dog that clearly doesn't challenge you daily doesn't give you a wide enough range of experience to make generalised comments IMO. Some of your "observations" about dogs unlike your own can border on offensive to people who face considerable issues with their dogs every day.

Go and walk some pound dogs. Once you've dealt with half a dozen or so 20-30 kg dogs who are prepared to hunker down and mush to haul their handlers where ever they feel like exploring, you'll have more basis to discuss how such dogs view the human at the end of the lead. To many such dogs, the human is at best irrelevant or a hindrance to their goals. They don't care about the other end of the lead because they've never been given motivation to or their drives overpower them.

Edited February 27, 2009 by poodlefan

[dee lee]

Corvus:

Pulling because they've done it all their life is not really about dominating, though, right?

It's about who's in charge. The leader determines where you go. If you get to pull your handler whereever you want to go, who do you think is in charge? To some dogs a human is simply a brake that slows their travels. I see dogs like that progress round my suburb every day.

Corvus I really think you need to meet more dogs. I'm sure as a zoologist you'd never make conclusions about species behaviour based on one or two individuals would you?

The fact that you have a dog that clearly doesn't challenge you daily doesn't give you a wide enough range of experience to make generalised comments IMO. Some of your "observations" about dogs unlike your own can border on offensive to people who face considerable issues with their dogs every day.

Go and walk some pound dogs. Once you've dealt with half a dozen or so 20-30 kg dogs who are prepared to hunker down and mush to haul their handlers where ever they feel like exploring, you'll have more basis to discuss how such dogs view the human at the end of the lead. To many such dogs, the human is at best irrelevant or a hindrance to their goals. They don't care about the other end of the lead because they've never been given motivation to or their drives overpower them.

:rolleyes:

[corvus]

Corvus:

Pulling because they've done it all their life is not really about dominating, though, right?

It's about who's in charge. The leader determines where you go. If you get to pull your handler whereever you want to go, who do you think is in charge? To some dogs a human is simply a brake that slows their travels. I see dogs like that progress round my suburb every day.

They don't care about the other end of the lead because they've never been given motivation to or their drives overpower them.

That's my point in bold. If you are just a brake, is the dog even thinking about where they stand in relation to you socially? How can it be considered dominant behaviour if all they are doing is being overpowered by their drives? It seems to me that just because we stand on the other end of the leash somehow a dog should magically want to go where we want to go and if they don't they are dominant? What about if they are in the backyard and you want to sit in the sun but they want to go dig up the garden? Does that mean they are dominant? What if they are off leash and you want to walk down the beach but they want to run into the waves? Are they dominant then? What's the difference between wanting to run when they are on leash and wanting to run when they are off leash? I'm asking because I don't get it. I'm doing my zoologist thing by NOT drawing conclusions but by asking questions and looking for answers that make sense to me when I don't understand something.

I grew up with a 30kg dog that pulled like a freight train. She was a hardcore dog and regularly beat up on other dogs if they got in her face, but the fact that she pulled was more about her lack of training and the way she had learnt to treat leashes than being a dominant dog, which I'm sure anyone on this board would have called her. I invite you to challenge me, but challenge me with good arguments, not a demand for more experience, which isn't much help to me. I'm easily persuaded by a good argument, which is how I got myself into being so unpopular around here in the first place.