Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Another question - if you fail the ring work would you still do the stays - and whats your reasoning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Another question - if you fail the ring work would you still do the stays - and whats your reasoning? Would entirely depend on the dog's demeanour and what/how he failed. If he's bright and enthusiastic and, for instance, moved in the SFE or overshot the recall due to excitement I would do the stays. If the weather was warm and he was flat, then I wouldn't. If I was the cause of him failing I would and do the stays, provided he was working well. It's not so much what the dog fails but his attitude when he fails that would affect my decision. Rest assured, it makes sense in my head ETA: Having seen PAX's response below.....only because both myself and my dog are newbies and we don't attend an obedience club so it's a great opportunity for us to do a group stay. Edited February 22, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I would not do the stays if I failed.......reason is 'why bother'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I wouldn't do stays if I was failing. I have seen enough things happen that I wouldn't put a dog who wasn't passing through it as its a huge risk. All it would take especially in the lower classes is one unstable dog upsetting your dog and you could be ruined for life (or have a stay problem which at least wasn't there before you started). Not like you can actually do anything during stays as in reward or correct a dog (if that takes your fancy). Better to grab dogs and practice them when you have an opportunity to reward and your dog isn't vulnerable to what a strange dog might do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Newbie back again.... thank you for being kind Thinking more about the stays (it was early morning & lack of sleep when I answered). If I thought it was a case of "anticipation" or the dog becoming used to the sequence of sit stays first, then down stays, and downing because that's what we always do next, I would try to mix it up with the group stays in training - down stays first then sit stays... or down stays only one day then sit stays the next. If I failed the ring work, I would probably pull my dog out of the stays, particularly if it was one of my first, or early trials. My dog has proven to me that for whatever reason (poor handling, lack of proofing, etc) that we need to do more work in training. I don't think that I have the right to risk someone elses possibly qualification because my dog is "iffy" and breaks from the stays - not exactly setting my dog up for success either. However, in this case, when I approached the judge/steward to withdraw, I would make it clear that I would make myself available to make up numbers if needed, PROVIDED that I can leave my dog on lead and stay with my dog (I believe that my dog would be less likely to break a stay in this situation and I still get the ring experience of group stays without putting other dogs at risk). Edited February 22, 2009 by squeak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 It's not so much what the dog fails but his attitude when he fails that would affect my decision. That was my thinking too. If my dog is hot and bothered and is lacking concentration, if I failed the ring work then I would call it quits. But if my dog was focusing really well, especially with heelwork, and failed on something that couldn't be predicted, I'd be tempted to do the stays for practice (as it appears for me, it's the trial atmosphere my dog is failing her stays in!). But then again, I could always just practice those stays outside the ring. So to sum up, I dunno! But most likely wouldn't and just practice them outside the ring where we're at lower risk of failure and upsetting someone else's dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 So what happens if your dog is so far doing a nice stay, then the dog next to you gets up and wanders over to your dog and gets in their face, causing your dog to break it's stay? (would you really stay put with something in your face??) Does anyone proof their stays in training to include getting another dog right in their face? How do I go about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 At CCD level I would have over trained the length of stay in the ring so a 1 minute sit shouldn't be an issue when the dog is regularly doing 3 min++++ even with the extra standing around waiting time. That's what I thought too, hence why I have trained some longer sit stays than the required 1 min CCD sit stay, but it didn't seem to matter in a trial situation Looks like I've got some work ahead of me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 It interesting that some of our judges in WA (including our open judge last night) will do 2 lots of stays - one for those that are passing and one for those that aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Rubystar - if you want somebody to check Ruby out, let me know. As you know my kids are having treatment tomorrow night It's something I may consider if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg She's had her hips x-rayed before, even after the ugly sit was solid, and they came back with no problems. I don't think she's sitting this way to relieve pressure or pain, I think she's just trained herself to sit this way to hold herself up on slippery tiles! You can get a more upright sit by asking for a hand touch above the dogs head. I started teaching Ruby this but she doesn't always return to a straight sit, something I will do more work with as we only just started with it - as long as you definitely don't lose points by asking your dog for a nose touch when you're getting ready for the sit stay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 It interesting that some of our judges in WA (including our open judge last night) will do 2 lots of stays - one for those that are passing and one for those that aren't. How do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 All the dogs who had passed their ring work were in the first group of sit and down stays and then all the dogs who failed their ring work were allowed to do stays in the next group. You can only have 10 dogs in a stay and they needed to have 2 lots anyway - so the judge split them into those who had passed and those who hadn't. It makes it hard when you have more than one dog in the ring as I then had to run around and find somebody to handle one of my kids in the stays. Pity you have gone home Katie - otherwise you might have been it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 It makes it hard when you have more than one dog in the ring as I then had to run around and find somebody to handle one of my kids in the stays. Pity you have gone home Katie - otherwise you might have been it Would you have really wanted to risk it with me in there? I'm hoping I can eventually get Ruby out of CCD by the time Millie is ready, otherwise I'll be stuffed myself with who to use for the stays! I guess I could always chuck one in Novice, but I wanna get as much trial experience in CCD as I can (where you're probably expected to bugger up a bit ) before I go any further if that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Actually it would have been interesting giving you Blaize. She is a lovely dog as long as you don't have 4 legs and it makes you very aware of what is going on around you and how handlers often are very inconsiderate. It is an art getting into the ring with dogs either side of you, removing your lead and keeping her engaged so that she will stay with you and not come running over to me. When you leave her she wont move that I am sure of. When you return to her at the end of the sit stay you then have to free her off, tell her she is brilliant without letting the dogs either side of you come close. The same goes for when you return from the down stay and before you get your lead back from the steward. Di did a great job last night - although Di if you read this I did smile when I wanted to hand you a truck load of food before we went in and you said "what is this for". I said just keep shovelling it in (Blaize loves food and will stay with you forever if she thinks she is on a winner) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 about Di and your comment re the food. Blaize is an evil sweety . But yep she does love her treats and will stay with you if she thinks your going to pay her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 The only thing I'm saying is I hate Sit Stays, always have and always will. Its a stay so as long as the dog holds ground it shoud not have to do them in a sit.When I watch my own dogs at home, if they are focused on something (like they focus on us in a sit stay) they always drop to get comfy for the viewing, they certainly never stare at things in a sit. I think sit stays should be outlawed. I couldn't agree more!! I hate the sit stays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Another question - if you fail the ring work would you still do the stays - and whats your reasoning? No, never do. I have the same 'why bother' attitude. I also think on the complete off chance that my dog interefered with a passing dog that I would never forgive myself. I have no reason to think they ever would, if I had real doubts I wouldn't do stays, whether we were passing or not. There are judges here too that will split stays to passing and non-passing. There are also judges who will only allow passing dogs to do the stays (usually when letting the others means more than 10, so two stays, and time is tight). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xena98 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Gee sounding like a couple of my girls. If my girls lay down in the sit stays I will pull her out and she has to do another one straight away just outside of my gazebo. (have been told of for doing it near the ring but wasnt near the ring if you understand what I'm saying) and than gets her reward. If I have failed an exercise my girls wont do stays as other people have said you dont know what will happen and I would like to do stays so they can be corrected and also the buggers can learn nothing happens in the ring only outside the ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I may be totally off the mark here BUT....... *I would never do the drop stay *If it did it in the trial but never at home, I would go home and practice my stays again without overdoing it and as squeak said, setting up similar situations. I would aim (if all was going well) to get a longer sit stay on my dog so that in the ring, with all the added stressors... 1 min seems 'easy' to both you and the dog. There is nothing better than hearing the "return" and thinking "really?! that was 1min" rather than glaring down the judge going "OMG EVIL judge... this is soooo much longer than 1 min!!!" *I would also work on my body language... usually when our dogs drop it's coz of us.... I used to swear black and blue that I wouldn't stare at my dog in the stays... until one day I noticed - I didn't stare till I noticed a fidget, and then it was the death glare! Totally unintentional but there it was! So I've gone back to picking a spot and singing a song in my head (song gets faster by the end though ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) Oh boy, I have sooooo been here. One of my poodles finds the sit stays far too tiring and loves to lie down. Sunny weather is the worst - just ideal for a nice relaxing snooze. :rolleyes: At what point of the sit stay does your dog lie down.. fairly soon in or towards the end? Suggestions I can think of: Train a longer sit stay than you need. Much longer. Return and reward frequently initially, maintaining the sit the whole time. I've seen a few dogs go down as the handler returns. Never train the down stay straight after the sit stay. Sometimes I think dogs may be anticipating the next position. Do sit stays in training with a piece of PVC piping in just front of the dogs front paws to discourage lying down. Pray. Edited February 23, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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