Ptolomy Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Hypothetical Question here........ First trial of the year and your dog drops during the sit stay. In 2 weeks time you are entered in the Western Classic...... 1. Would you stay and do the down stay 2. What would you do to try and prevent dropping in the sit stay from happening again. PS - the dog never drops during the sit stay at training or when we do a stay at home (yep heard that one many times.......) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Hypothetical Question here........First trial of the year and your dog drops during the sit stay. In 2 weeks time you are entered in the Western Classic...... 1. Would you stay and do the down stay 2. What would you do to try and prevent dropping in the sit stay from happening again. PS - the dog never drops during the sit stay at training or when we do a stay at home (yep heard that one many times.......) Newbie here, so don't laugh too loud! When it happened in the ring (and this is probably a "training in the ring" thing, so I should do it?) I would have asked the dog to sit before releasing it. I would probably enter the Western Classic. Things I would do... - try to work out why the dog dropped - was it an extremely hot day and the grass was cool? Did dogs beside it move and it just followed? What was happening in adjacent rings? - I would try to recreate the trial conditions it happened in as much as possible and proof again - location, weather, dog breeds, position in line, time of day, etc - I would also proof specifically against dogs beside it moving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) I never do the down stay if my dog drops in the sit. You aren't going to qually anyway and I never do the stays unless we are qualifying. Is the dropping in the sit stay unusual for the dog? Or is it common trial thing, just not during training? If it's an unusual occurance, I wouldn't worry too much, I'd just reinforce them again in training, get someone to act as judge and reinforce the dog for staying maybe. Is there an 'obvious' reason the dog dropped? Hotter than usual, dog was tired? Like squeak said, I"d try and recreate the same conditions in training. Edited February 21, 2009 by FHRP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Hmmmm......when told by the judge "exercise finished" I would give a NRM, exit the ring (so no down stay for me) and immediately go and practice a couple of sit stays, setting the dog up for success with reduced time/distance and reward enthusiastically when the dog got it right. I would try and picture in my head the dog's body language when it dropped (assuming it's not an out of sight) to determine why it dropped in the first place. Beg, borrow or steal a video that someone might have taken. Then proof, proof, proof under trial conditions, maybe even with dogs in a down stay either side if that was the problem.......then relax, make sure the dog is fresh and enjoy the Western Classic come what may :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I never do the down stay if my dog drops in the sit. You aren't going to qually anyway and I never do the stays unless we are qualifying. Is the dropping in the sit stay unusual for the dog? Or is it common trial thing, just not during training? If it's an unusual occurance, I wouldn't worry too much, I'd just reinforce them again in training, get someone to act as judge and reinforce the dog for staying maybe. Is there an 'obvious' reason the dog dropped? Hotter than usual, dog was tired? Like squeak said, I"d try and recreate the same conditions in training. Great point about not doing the drop stays!!! I dedided to do some open training with Bella and she has been dopping in the sit stays so will stop the drop stays for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hmm is this really a hypothetical - would depend whether the dog has a history of sit stay issues. I would certainly not be doing the drop stay (presuming that the drops are very reliable). I might switch to considering using a sit only command and building duration on the sit for the next 2 weeks. So instead of a stay command I would give a second sit command as I left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hmm is this really a hypothetical - LOL no not really - it happened to 2 dogs I know last night (neither of them were mine but it has been a problem in the past for me too) . Of the two dogs last night - the experience trialler pulled out after she returned to the dog and found her dropped in the sit stay - the novice trialler stayed and did the down stay. Keep the suggestions coming........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Well I was going to suggest if they were red dogs that maybe swapping them for a black and white model might be easier but good to hear it wasn't a certain red one . In which case I might ask if the dogs are use to doing stays around the same dogs at training but where located next to different dogs in the ring. What level stays are we talking about, are they CCD/Novice or Open level. So in sight or out of sight? What do the handlers do in between the sit and the down stay. Do they release the dog and break them off or immediately place them into a drop? Edited February 22, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Actually 2 were CCD dogs the other was an open dog and yes it was red! So do people practice sit stays outside the ring before going in? Do you find out who is next to you in stays and ask to do a practice stay next to that dog? In the ring I will not put my dog into a sit stay until all leads have been collected, the judge has said their bit and checked that their watch is working. I find that otherwise the 3 minute sit stays turns into a 5 minute sit stay. It takes me 2 seconds to ask the dog to line up and to be ready to leave. Also want to say thanks to Di who took Blaize into open stays for me last night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Raising my hand here, I was the novice trialler last night whose little monster dropped in her sit stay. I stayed for the down stay because the judge told me I could, otherwise I was all prepared to walk out. I will definitely excuse myself next time and take Ptolomy's advice of then practicing another sit stay outside the ring while the others are doing their down stays. It was for CCD, Ness, but you would have gotten that once I put my hand up As we've all heard before, such and such doesn't do it at home or in practice, which sounds like a cop out but really, when you're in your first "real" trial, how are you supposed to know if it's a common thing in trials or not, when all you have to call on is what happens in training?? The only other time she's done this was a couple of weeks ago at a practice trial where it was also a hot day and it had been a fair bit of time between individual exercises, so I think I have a case of a lazy Lab who really can't be stuffed staying sitting for a minute when she's hot and bothered. So does anyone think it would be a good idea over the next 2 weeks to wear her out a little in the late arvo heat (not the sun, but while it's still warm), then attempt a sit stay while it's still warm and she's a bit tired? I'm not sure how to rectify this problem when I can't find a chance to correct her in practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 In the ring I will not put my dog into a sit stay until all leads have been collected, the judge has said their bit and checked that their watch is working. I find that otherwise the 3 minute sit stays turns into a 5 minute sit stay. It takes me 2 seconds to ask the dog to line up and to be ready to leave. See I wouldn't have known you could leave your dog just standing around until the very last second. They tell you to enter and set your dog up so I assume you need to do it right away. I've had least amount of experience trial style with stays.... obviously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 The only thing I'm saying is I hate Sit Stays, always have and always will. Its a stay so as long as the dog holds ground it shoud not have to do them in a sit. When I watch my own dogs at home, if they are focused on something (like they focus on us in a sit stay) they always drop to get comfy for the viewing, they certainly never stare at things in a sit. I think sit stays should be outlawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Another point that MAY be worth making is my girl has a funny sit. Always has, and probably always will. Her back legs slip out when sitting on our tiles and over the years, it has developed into her normal sit no matter where she is. This makes her lean a bit more forward than a dog sitting upright so she is closer to that inviting drop to the ground to get comfy Can a doggy chiro help this problem I'm wondering?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 At CCD level I would have over trained the length of stay in the ring so a 1 minute sit shouldn't be an issue when the dog is regularly doing 3 min++++ even with the extra standing around waiting time. In open I do leave my dog until the last minute before getting them to sit. Never had a sit stay problem but I do occasionally have a down stay problem and bugger of a dog certainly knows when to pick the occasion to break doesn't she Ptolomy . PAX well based on my observations apparently BCs like to watch things from a sit so maybe they need to outlaw the down stay or maybe they should just make it a stay as long as you don't move from that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Might be worth getting her checked RubyStar but some dogs just have lazy sits as well. You can get a more upright sit by asking for a hand touch above the dogs head. Kenzie has started doing lazy sits in the last few weeks so will be back to the chiro sometime in the next few weeks before I do to much with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Ness, I'm getting narky here, my real working BC always drops as that is what good sheep dogs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Yeah I know my show one doesnt though . God knows why the only times she has broken her drop stays she has sat up (although in context its probably partially a stress response). She still stays but ends up scratching and sits up. I wonder if in part its due to also doing more sit stays and rewarding more sit stays then I do drop stays . And she just doesn't want me to actually get a quallie card with a decent score. She always manages to nail her stays when she is on lowish scores but on the odd occasion she puts in a blindingly good ring round she decides that is when she is going to break her down . Edited February 22, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Scoota drops in the sit stay when he is sore - I usually either get a squiffy sit when trying to line him up, or he will sit straight and will then rock back and roll over onto one of his hips so that he can stick his other leg out. I then know there is no way he will sit for 3 minutes. Rubystar - if you want somebody to check Ruby out, let me know. As you know my kids are having treatment tomorrow night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Another point that MAY be worth making is my girl has a funny sit. Always has, and probably always will. Her back legs slip out when sitting on our tiles and over the years, it has developed into her normal sit no matter where she is. This makes her lean a bit more forward than a dog sitting upright so she is closer to that inviting drop to the ground to get comfy Can a doggy chiro help this problem I'm wondering?! Sorry My golden retriever has a funny sit too, just like what you are describing I would love to learn how to teach her a more tucked-in sit. (btw to the best of my and my chiro's knowledge she does not have any hip problems) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Laffi - Scoota has been having accupunture for about 12 months now. He used to stand like a tripod and we would laugh at him, little did I realise that he had to stand like this to keep his balance. Its been like peeling an onion - the accupuncture will cure one problem and another one will be uncovered. The biggest change has been turning his rear passengers side foot from being very turned out to now being almost straight and at the same time there has been a big change in how he stands and its all related to his rear end and hip area. My kids are on tiles all day too and I really think this doesn't help the way they sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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