Dog Has Selective Hearing, Also Will Only Come When I Have Treats!

[chichihuahua]

My dog is a little mini foxie cross and he's almost two soon.

Normally he's quite well behaved, he knows to sit, down, shake paw, beg, come, stay and leave it. The problem is that when he's outside off the lead, he has "selective hearing" and often will ignore me! I don't really know what to do as when I have treats he does come but if I don't have them he completely ignores me. How do I get it to the point of him coming to me regardless of whether he gets rewarded or not? I've been practicing this for two years!!

Another thing which really bugs me is whenever he goes off lead at the dog park and spies another person, he will run circles around them barking and is impossible to catch. It really doesn't help that I cannot for the life of me get him to come back. I even carry a squeaky toy with me to distract him, but after a while he lost interest. Treats don't work either once he gets in his barking "zone". I've tried just walking the opposite direction but he pays no attention to me.

I'm not sure what to do! Is it best to use a clicker? And do you think if I could get him to come back on command then the barking thing would be more controllable? I'd love some tips!!

P.S

He's normally pretty good, I can take food/toys from him freely and he submits to me if i tell him to be quiet, but all this seems to have no affect whenever he's off lead! I also take him for a walk/run every day so it's definitely not like he's got all this pent up energy or anything.

[Just Midol]

e-collar.

I believe they are the best training tool. Way better than clickers, anything. JMO though. For some things I combine the clicker in with my e-collar work, but not for recalls.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Just Midol

[Kavik]

Have you tried putting him on a long lead and practicing recalls? Make sure you have his favourite treats/toys and make coming to you the BEST thing ever! Call and run the other way, HEAPS of praise and a treat/play when he gets to you (may be a good idea to get him to sit first so he doesn't learn to do a fly by ).

Start by getting a good recall in a quiet area, then build up to taking him to the park with the long lead on and get him to recall when he sees another person or dog, then when he is visiting another person or dog. With the long lead on you can make sure he comes to you every time. So far he has learnt that he can ignore you and only has to come when he wants to.

Midol, while you like ecollars, they are not everybody's solution to a recall problem

[skip]

If my little chi /foxy wasn't timid ansd mostly attached to me , I'm sure she would be just as cheeky.

I'm with Kavik about the long line. Your dog is cluey enough to know when Mum can't get him. And maybe up the value of the treats, mix it up so he doesn't know if he is getting a dry bickie or something much better.

I would be concerned if mine were barking at people. One of mine did this at first although I can't remember stopping this behaviour, it just ceased as he was trained more. I would have the long line and practice some training near strangers.

Good luck. Bet he is a cutie!

[Sarah L]

e-collar.

I believe they are the best training tool. Way better than clickers, anything. JMO though. For some things I combine the clicker in with my e-collar work, but not for recalls.

You have got to be joking and taking the piss. If you can't get a new dog to do any of these things without an e- collar then what I joked about in another thread then you should really do and that is get some gold fish. Or do you just like to throw in comments in threads that you know will get you attention.

[Sarah L]

My dog is a little mini foxie cross and he's almost two soon.

Normally he's quite well behaved, he knows to sit, down, shake paw, beg, come, stay and leave it. The problem is that when he's outside off the lead, he has "selective hearing" and often will ignore me! I don't really know what to do as when I have treats he does come but if I don't have them he completely ignores me. How do I get it to the point of him coming to me regardless of whether he gets rewarded or not? I've been practicing this for two years!!

Another thing which really bugs me is whenever he goes off lead at the dog park and spies another person, he will run circles around them barking and is impossible to catch. It really doesn't help that I cannot for the life of me get him to come back. I even carry a squeaky toy with me to distract him, but after a while he lost interest. Treats don't work either once he gets in his barking "zone". I've tried just walking the opposite direction but he pays no attention to me.

I'm not sure what to do! Is it best to use a clicker? And do you think if I could get him to come back on command then the barking thing would be more controllable? I'd love some tips!!

P.S

He's normally pretty good, I can take food/toys from him freely and he submits to me if i tell him to be quiet, but all this seems to have no affect whenever he's off lead! I also take him for a walk/run every day so it's definitely not like he's got all this pent up energy or anything.

When you walk in the opposite direction I guess you are still looking back to see whether he is looking at you or not. Try running full pelt and do not look back at your dog then hide behind the nearest tree. This way the dog cannot read what you are doing. If after this he does not come to you then I would put him on a long line and work with that. Unless he has severe aggression issues then I would not even contemplate an e collar. But I guess some people would use them for a quick fix. Even on dogs that they once would have given the chance with not using one of these collars on. I guess it's your choice on what you want to do.

[Erny]

e-collar.

I believe they are the best training tool. Way better than clickers, anything. JMO though. For some things I combine the clicker in with my e-collar work, but not for recalls.

You have got to be joking and taking the piss. If you can't get a new dog to do any of these things without an e- collar then what I joked about in another thread then you should really do and that is get some gold fish. Or do you just like to throw in comments in threads that you know will get you attention.

Midol didn't say you can't get the recall without an e-collar :D so I don't see how he is "taking the piss" as you say. Although you are entitled to your opinion, assuming that's what it was. Just because e-collars might be a controversial training tool to some people doesn't make them a bad training tool, nor the mention of them some sort of cry for attention either. .

They are an excellent and efficient training tool for the recall though, especially when the problem is an off-lead one and the dog has had the opportunity to learn it. I do like the on-lead foundation work to be solid before people begin using an e-collar though (the way I use it is on low stim/negative reinforcement, so it is quite a gentle method with minimum stress). A good part of the reason for this is that this teaches the HANDLER the time to build (in him/herself) the skill and co-ordination of lead handling, timing, command and reward delivery ..... all of which is necessary for good training anyway, regardless of which training tool is used.

If that was all in place then I don't see a problem with going to a training tool that may likely be the best one for the job. True ..... the handler/owner needs to be interested enough to learn about its good use though.

Reality_22 .... the clicker is only a marker for the right behaviour. It is not a training method in itself. Some people like to use it - I think because it helps them with 'timing' in marking the right behaviour, but that's all it does. Personally, I don't use them. I think that apart from training, it would also be advantageous to check out your relationship with your dog to ensure that it is as it should be. It is hard to train a dog well if something isn't right in the relationship.

There are numerous ways to train (including the recall). Which one is the best one for you and your dog is what needs to be decided upon and you are definitely part of the equation in that decision .

Edited February 21, 2009 by Erny

[Sarah L]

e-collar.

I believe they are the best training tool. Way better than clickers, anything. JMO though. For some things I combine the clicker in with my e-collar work, but not for recalls.

You have got to be joking and taking the piss. If you can't get a new dog to do any of these things without an e- collar then what I joked about in another thread then you should really do and that is get some gold fish. Or do you just like to throw in comments in threads that you know will get you attention.

Midol didn't say you can't get the recall without an e-collar :D so I don't see how he is "taking the piss" as you say. Although you are entitled to your opinion, assuming that's what it was.

They are an excellent and efficient training tool for the recall though, especially when the problem is an off-lead one and the dog has had the opportunity to learn it. I do like the on-lead foundation work to be solid before people begin using an e-collar though (the way I use it is on low stim/negative reinforcement, so it is quite a gentle method with minimum stress). A good part of the reason for this is that this teaches the HANDLER the time to build (in him/herself) the skill and co-ordination of lead handling, timing, command and reward delivery ..... all of which is necessary for good training anyway, regardless of which training tool is used.

If that was all in place then I don't see a problem with going to a training tool that may likely be the best one for the job. True ..... the handler/owner needs to be interested enough to learn about its good use though.

Reality_22 .... the clicker is only a marker for the right behaviour. It is not a training method in itself. Some people like to use it - I think because it helps them with 'timing' in marking the right behaviour, but that's all it does. Personally, I don't use them. I think that apart from training, it would also be advantageous to check out your relationship with your dog to ensure that it is as it should be. It is hard to train a dog well if something isn't right in the relationship.

There are numerous ways to train (including the recall). Which one is the best one for you and your dog is what needs to be decided upon and you are definitely part of the equation in that decision .

As I said if you can't get a dog to to do any of these things without the use of an e collar what is the point in having a dog. I do not believe that e collars should be the bee all and end all of training a dog. Yet those who believe in them will try and persuade you that they are the bee all and end all. Yes Midol did say that he combines the clicker with the e collar for some things yet i would use niether for any simple behaviours, but not for recall yet Erny you say they are an effective tool for recall for a dog that has had the opportunity to learn it.

Look I am all for a dog learning the basic foundation on lead that I agree with but even if the foundation fails for some people because the underlying cause may be their lack of a good relationship with their dog, which no matter how you try you will never be able to develop a relationship between an animal and a human so because a human can not have a good relationship or understand one then others will advise a e collar so they can push the control points onto the animal world. Why should the dog/animal be the one to undergo such aversive's for the lack of human understanding. When are humans going to learn they are not the bee all and end all of everything, also when are humans going to stop imposing what they think is their free will on an animal and what they think is their right in this world. This world needs both animals and humans for it to survive yet we are no closer to that world as humans today than the cave man was hundreds of years ago. Sorry JMO.... Waits for the flames to come!

[Kavik]

I just think ecollars shouldn't be the first thing someone suggests to a new person to help with recalls.

This is because:

1) They are a controversial tool, with very stong emotions tied to its use, and to the methodology (even on low stim) of negative reinforcement, and require professional help to use

2) They are expensive!

3) They cannot be used in a training club environment as they are not allowed

4) legality in some areas is questionable

IMO the important thing with recalls is:

* If you don't think the dog will come, don't call it

* if you don't have a good recall, keep the dog on lead until you do

* work with distractions before you let the dog off lead

* don't call the dog to reprimand it or only when you are going home

[Tonymc]

Reality,what best motivates the Dog?Second question that we all need to ask ourselves when dealing with anything is where are you coming from mentally and emotionally? Tony

[chichihuahua]

Reality,what best motivates the Dog?Second question that we all need to ask ourselves when dealing with anything is where are you coming from mentally and emotionally? Tony

Motivates the dog? I dont know.... he just runs up and barks at people so perhaps it's nerves? it's not really aggression, as bad as the barking sounds. he actually quite friendly so i think perhaps it's just him amusing himself more than anything. and i dont really help the situation either as i tend to chase him after i get frustrated/embarrassed so he thinks its probably a game.

i took on everyone's advice about the long leash and ordered one over the weekend. it's an 11m loose lead so hopefully that will teach him that there is no other option but to come when i call. in regards to ecollars, not really my thing.

[Kavik]

What motivates the dog - he means what does your dog like? Treats? Toys? Pats? you can use these to reward your dog when he comes to you.

[corvus]

If you continue to have troubles with him blowing you off, sometimes it's worthwhile starting from scratch and using a new recall word/sound and conditioning it without giving him the chance to blow you off.

We have been conditioning a recall with Kivi for about 6 months or so. The idea is that he has an emergency recall and a regular recall. You work on the regular recall the way other people have suggested, and you work on a conditioned recall by always paying up big when he comes. Every time. You want him to know that it means he's going to get something amazing. Practice it everyday in all sorts of surroundings. Use the long line as a backup and only call once. This is Leslie Nelson's method as explained in Really Reliable Recall. It takes a long time, but training a reliable recall any way tends to take a long time. Despite OH's unwitting sabotage of Kivi's recall training, last week OH was dangling roast chicken in front of his nose and had his full attention when I used the ER and he abandoned the chicken and came running to me. It's not as cool as it sounds, though, as he tends to be listening for that recall when there's food around, just waiting for someone to use it because he knows that means he's getting some. He used to leave off playing with other dogs to come to the ER, but then we hit some snags and are building that one back up again. He will now come away from them as long as he's not totally immersed in a hard core play session. Given playing with dogs is his favourite thing in the world, and he is 11 months old and doesn't even hear us half the time, I am content with our progress.

And it's a lot cheaper than an e-collar. And eventually you won't be dependent on anything but your voice if all goes to plan.

[Erny]

Why should the dog/animal be the one to undergo such aversive's ...

"Such aversives"? You mean the feeling (unpleasant as it may be) of a tingle or a flea bite?

Compared to what? A longer time without the enjoyment of off-lead running, assuming that is, that off-lead becomes possible at all?

When are humans going to learn they are not the bee all and end all of everything ...

Who said they were the "bee all and end all of everything"?

... also when are humans going to stop imposing what they think is their free will on an animal and what they think is their right in this world.

Ummm .... when it comes to dogs, you can't avoid that. Unless you simply set the dog free .... totally. Of course we have to impose our free will as we have brought them to a world of humans, one they are not born to with an automatic understanding.

This world needs both animals and humans for it to survive yet we are no closer to that world as humans today than the cave man was hundreds of years ago. Sorry JMO.... Waits for the flames to come!

No flames. But this last is somewhat 'out there' as a seemingly over-reactive response to someone who simply suggested that they find the e-collar very useful in successfully training (re-training) an off-lead recall.

Edited February 22, 2009 by Erny

[Sarah L]

Hi Erny

I noticed that you picked a few quotes from my whole post that suited your favoritism for e collars. Don't get me wrong if you want to use them then that's fine it has no affect on me. However can you answer my point that some people cannot develop a good and natural relationship with a dog to do simple tasks with that dog like a recall without the use of an e collar. If they have to use such a tool for this purpose rather than say a long line. Or for other simple things like get the dog to not pull on lead. At what point are we going to stop blaming the dog and start blaming the person for their lack of understanding. Also if good trainers cannot get through to people how to do simple tasks with their dogs without then going on to recommend an e collar because in the end they know that that person will not put in the effort with that dog. My question was why should the dog suffer for the lack of human understanding.

Erny I know from personal experience that the one or two owners who will use such a tool correctly and only apply a stim to the equivalent of a flee bite which I found quite amusing and a new way to put it. What do we do with the rest who will not stop at the flee bite stim. Also I do not believe that enough people will take the time and spend the money to find out what the proper use of this tool would be. That includes people who do attend a class and when they use the flea bite stim and get no reaction from the dog they continue to keep pressing that button and the instructor does not even see this happening.

No the solution is not to set the dog free as you put it. But more so for all humans to look at their relationships to animals further than their own misunderstanding of that animal. There are so many good dogs put to sleep every day in pounds around Australia with little or no issues, yet to me a lot of people over here seem to want to put a lot of time and effort into a lot of dogs that would would never have survived in the first place if they were to be set free as you say.

I would also like to say that my new young pup at 7 months old does not have a good recall yet. Yes she will recall 100% at the park with the friends she has there and she even recalled from a bunch of drunk teenagers there but put her in an agility trial or agility class and I have no hope. Does this warrant a E Collar.... god no!

I would like to say thank you also for "no flames" as I have received from this forum in the past on this subject but I guess I would rather a person not have a dog than to go to the extent of an E Collar to train Heal, Come, Sit, Stay, Down. Or even suggest the fact to a new owner for any of these basic training points of a dog.

I am sorry to the op of this thread I have no intention of making it a E Collar debate god knows there are enough threads on here that cover that. However the suggestion of an E Collar was made in this thread I feel it was very inappropriately mentioned and I had to give my point of view. Sorry once again. If Midol would not use it for recall in the first place why did Midol slip in here then.

[Steve K9Pro]

R22: The problem is that when he's outside off the lead, he has "selective hearing" and often will ignore me! I don't really know what to do as when I have treats he does come but if I don't have them he completely ignores me. How do I get it to the point of him coming to me regardless of whether he gets rewarded or not? I've been practicing this for two years!!

K9: one thing that people don't realise is that practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. By recalling your dog & getting the dog to comply some times means your making permanent his lack of reliability.

I would go back to the rule that if you don't have a reliable recall, he doesn't go off leash. This may mean the use of the long line also.

R22: Another thing which really bugs me is whenever he goes off lead at the dog park and spies another person, he will run circles around them barking and is impossible to catch. It really doesn't help that I cannot for the life of me get him to come back. I even carry a squeaky toy with me to distract him, but after a while he lost interest. Treats don't work either once he gets in his barking "zone". I've tried just walking the opposite direction but he pays no attention to me.

K9: More good reasons to keep him on leash.

R22: I'm not sure what to do! Is it best to use a clicker? And do you think if I could get him to come back on command then the barking thing would be more controllable? I'd love some tips!!

K9: This is the best tip I can give you, seek out a pro trainer in your area that will help. I have had a brief read of the rest of the replies & all were really hearing is others beliefs in which I will add mine, but as I said, get a pro on the job & things will come easy.

[Steve K9Pro]

K: Start by getting a good recall in a quiet area, then build up to taking him to the park with the long lead on and get him to recall when he sees another person or dog, then when he is visiting another person or dog. With the long lead on you can make sure he comes to you every time. So far he has learnt that he can ignore you and only has to come when he wants to.

K9: This is correct, however there already is a foundation, a foundation that is built on the dog blowing off the owner.

P: If you can't get a new dog to do any of these things without an e- collar then what I joked about in another thread then you should really do and that is get some gold fish.

K9: I cant see where anyone said "the only way is"... & I am not sure your qualified to advise people on what pets they should stick to.

The e collar is definitely one way & probably the most reliable way.

P: When you walk in the opposite direction I guess you are still looking back to see whether he is looking at you or not. Try running full pelt and do not look back at your dog then hide behind the nearest tree.

K9: if the dog has engaged in barking or has little pack drive this will serve no purpose.

P: If after this he does not come to you then I would put him on a long line and work with that.

K9: if he hasn't gotten himself into trouble by running onto a road whilst the OP is hiding behind a tree.

P: Unless he has severe aggression issues then I would not even contemplate an e collar.

K9: If you don't have experience with e collars then I agree, you should not use them without pro help.

P: But I guess some people would use them for a quick fix.

K9: I always marvel at people who try & paint quick fixes in a bad light?

I wonder what the benefit of a slow fix is?

If a slow fix is good, then no fix must be excellent? :D

Edited February 23, 2009 by K9 Force

[Steve K9Pro]

P: As I said if you can't get a dog to to do any of these things without the use of an e collar what is the point in having a dog.

K9: Oh wow, so everyone who hasnt been able to train a recall should see there is no point to owning a dog?

P: I do not believe that e collars should be the bee all and end all of training a dog.

K9: Yes that's clear in your posts.

P: Yet those who believe in them will try and persuade you that they are the bee all and end all.

K9: wonder why they would do that?

P: Why should the dog/animal be the one to undergo such aversive's for the lack of human understanding.

K9: after reading some of your posts one might ask a similar question of you? Why should new posters be subjected to your discriminatory style posts on the e collar fir the lack of your understanding?

P: When are humans going to learn they are not the bee all and end all of everything,

K9: Arent you human? :D

P: also when are humans going to stop imposing what they think is their free will on an animal and what they think is their right in this world.

K9: Sorta similar again to your posts right?

P:

This world needs both animals and humans for it to survive yet we are no closer to that world as humans today than the cave man was hundreds of years ago. Sorry JMO.... Waits for the flames to come!

K9: This world speeches arent really aimed at helping the OP are they?

They just seem a little soap boxish to me.

Edited February 23, 2009 by K9 Force

[Steve K9Pro]

K: I just think ecollars shouldn't be the first thing someone suggests to a new person to help with recalls.

This is because:

1) They are a controversial tool, with very stong emotions tied to its use, and to the methodology (even on low stim) of negative reinforcement, and require professional help to use

2) They are expensive!

3) They cannot be used in a training club environment as they are not allowed

4) legality in some areas is questionable

K9: there are many tools that fall into most of these categories though & I agree whilst the OP is probably new to DOL, this doesn't really indicate where they are at in training.

I think it would be wrong to eliminate any tool that gives results from this thread simply because of these reasons.

I also believe that everyone has equal rights here to put fourth their thoughts.

Edited February 23, 2009 by K9 Force

[Steve K9Pro]

P: Don't get me wrong if you want to use them then that's fine it has no affect on me.

K9: You sure? don't seem that way...

P: However can you answer my point that some people cannot develop a good and natural relationship with a dog to do simple tasks with that dog like a recall without the use of an e collar. If they have to use such a tool for this purpose rather than say a long line. Or for other simple things like get the dog to not pull on lead. At what point are we going to stop blaming the dog and start blaming the person for their lack of understanding.

K9: so if people accept the blame you think that will remove the problem of a dog that wont recall? I see clients all the time that take blame with the use of hind sight, but it does not cure the problem. I agree people cold take a more pro active stance on training a young pup but when they dont, the next best thing is to try & cure what (inadvertantly?) have caused.

P: Also if good trainers cannot get through to people how to do simple tasks with their dogs without then going on to recommend an e collar because in the end they know that that person will not put in the effort with that dog. My question was why should the dog suffer for the lack of human understanding.

K9: The e collar used properly involves no pain or any suffering, more like the fastest return to freedom known to man or dog.

P: I know from personal experience that the one or two owners who will use such a tool correctly and only apply a stim to the equivalent of a flee bite which I found quite amusing and a new way to put it. What do we do with the rest who will not stop at the flee bite stim.

K9: educate them?

P: Also I do not believe that enough people will take the time and spend the money to find out what the proper use of this tool would be. That includes people who do attend a class and when they use the flea bite stim and get no reaction from the dog they continue to keep pressing that button and the instructor does not even see this happening.

K9: personally I think you are talking from a hypothetical point of view as I believe you have never ran a class of e collar trained dogs.

As I have, many times, this doesn't happen any more with this tool than mistakes happen with any other tool.

P: There are so many good dogs put to sleep every day in pounds around Australia with little or no issues

K9: And without the e collar there would be many more, world wide.

P: I would also like to say that my new young pup at 7 months old does not have a good recall yet. Yes she will recall 100% at the park with the friends she has there and she even recalled from a bunch of drunk teenagers there but put her in an agility trial or agility class and I have no hope. Does this warrant a E Collar.... god no!

K9: but it does seem to point out that you have not trained a reliable recall in 7 months....

I think the e collar was put forward by a member of the forum who has had great results with it, as a member he has every right to share his experience.

The inappropriateness seemed to come when he wasn't allowed to make a suggestion & was advised to get a Gold Fish. I wonder would that be an appropriate comment on a Gold fish forum.