Really Bad Barking Gr 4 Months :(

[GoldensRGreat]

Hi all

I've just read the puppy barking thread and the toilet training threads. but think I need more advice. I have a nearly 4 month old golden who is so stubborn she is really trying me.

We are doing clicker training and she is getting really good at it. However, all day she barks if I turn away from her or if I'm on the phone or even go to another room and she gets really persistant. I tell her NO and if she does it again i put her outside. But she will just bark and bark. After a few minutes of silence I go to her and I tell her good girl and let her back in. Within seconds she barks again. And it's a really determined bark. When I tell her NO, she rolls back her gums and barks even louder. We've been doing this for a couple of weeks now and not getting anywhere.

This time I've put her in the laundry but she sounds like she is about to thrash it down. I'm really worried as I'm renting and my neighbour is a sour old thing and I'm just waiting for the knock on the door.

I've only left her a few times to go out so I have no idea what she does when I'm gone. I don't think I want to know.

I've never had this problem with a pup before. I know she is challenging me for domination but she just won't give in. I don't even let her walk in the door before me, I feed her after me and have tried to let her know from day one that I'm the boss.

I'm having much the same problem with toilet training. She knows to go out. She will go happily each time I take her out. I leave the door open all day so she can come and go. But then she will just wee on the carpet in between times.

Can someone please please help me before I go mad.

[Kelpie_Pup]

I'm sorry she is giving you a hard time!

Unfortunately, while Halle was very stubborn as a puppy, she wasn't ever a really bad barker.

I'm not familiar with clicker training, so I'm not sure if what I'm going to suggest is going to work for you, but it worked for us.

Oh on a sidenote, close the door during the day. She has the freedom to go wherever she wants, whenever she wants. Keep her inside with you or take her outside, but always at YOUR decision, not hers.

So, with the barking, we used a little squirter bottle. We had several of them located in the house, and also one outside. If she barked more than we deemed necessary, or she was being silly or demanding attention, she simply got a squirt with the water-on jet spray. Generally at her head but anywhere on her body also did the trick. (someone is bound to read this and tell me it is very bad to squirt water at a puppy's face, but she turned out fine). We didn't talk to her, or really even look at her. She got squirted and that was it.

These days she only barks if there is a cat running along the fence.. she goes MENTAL, rasied hackles and all. but all we have to do is distract her and she forgets and stops.

You're right, she is trying to beat you. It really is a battle of wits. Just remind yourself that you're the adult and you area lot smarter than this puppy. When Halle used to get like this (we were trying to teach her the down-stay command) I used to sit there and laugh at her-even though I was so frustrated- because she was trying so hard to beat me but I never let her.

[GoldensRGreat]

Thanks so much. I will try that. But before I do I cannot believe what has happened tonight. Until tonight I was always putting her outside and with full windows she could still see me and kept barking. But I started putting her in the laundry. the first time she nearly broke the door down but I waitied till she had stopped for a few seconds then went and got her and brought her back in.

When she started barking again I did the NO and shen she didn't stop I took her back to the laundry. We've been back and forth about 4 times now and when I say NO, she stops barking. Whoo hoo. It really does work.

Very funny though, she barked once and then i turned to her and as I was about to say no she was just about to bark again and stopped suddenly and it turned into a weird noise instead. I nearly wet myself laughing.

Good advice re my decision or hers. I'll keep on that.

thanks again and I'll wait and see how we go over the next couple of days.

[Kelpie_Pup]

Thanks so much. I will try that. But before I do I cannot believe what has happened tonight. Until tonight I was always putting her outside and with full windows she could still see me and kept barking. But I started putting her in the laundry. the first time she nearly broke the door down but I waitied till she had stopped for a few seconds then went and got her and brought her back in.

When she started barking again I did the NO and shen she didn't stop I took her back to the laundry. We've been back and forth about 4 times now and when I say NO, she stops barking. Whoo hoo. It really does work.

Very funny though, she barked once and then i turned to her and as I was about to say no she was just about to bark again and stopped suddenly and it turned into a weird noise instead. I nearly wet myself laughing.

Good advice re my decision or hers. I'll keep on that.

thanks again and I'll wait and see how we go over the next couple of days.

Oh HOW funny!! You've obviously broken the cycle .. she's realised you're not going to give up now.

I can imagine the little squeak that she let out instead of her bark.

Good work on being persistent

[Mini_M]

Have you tried actually teaching her to bark on command? It's counterintuitive I know, but it worked for us.

There is a thread on it here:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=9497

Basically you clicker train them to bark on a command and hand signal and ignore them if they bark any other time. Now our Milo knows only to bark when requested.

Granted, he didn't really have a barking problem before, so your results may vary.

[Rappie]

I've never had this problem with a pup before. I know she is challenging me for domination but she just won't give in.

Is she really?

I would be more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt and think that what she's really learned is that you will pay attention to her if she barks. If she barks, you acknowledge her presence. Even being scolded, or touched to be put outside can count as attention. She may be determined, but I wouldn't think its determination to be dominant. More that most of the time it works, and when it doesn't the natural response is to try harder out of frustration.

I'd ignore the barking completely, carry on doing whatever you're doing until she's quiet, then tell her she's great. If she's responsive to praise then you don't have to touch her to do that. I'd also make sure she has plenty of exercise and mental stimulation and if you're not already, then start the 'nothing in life is free' program to give her a way that she can get attention. Also when you take attention for barking away, it's likely to get worse (temporarily) before it gets better so you've got to be consistent. Don't forget to reward "calm", it's easy to get wrapped up in all the things they aren't doing right

Edited February 22, 2009 by Rappie

[poodlefan]

Have you tried actually teaching her to bark on command? It's counterintuitive I know, but it worked for us.

There is a thread on it here:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=9497

Basically you clicker train them to bark on a command and hand signal and ignore them if they bark any other time. Now our Milo knows only to bark when requested.

Granted, he didn't really have a barking problem before, so your results may vary.

Putting behaviour on cue is sometimes recommeded but I've never heard of a problem barker who's been "cured" by this method.

Let me put it another way.. if I teach my dog to sit on cue, does this also mean he won't sit any other time?

You've got to break the cycle of behaviour by making it unrewarding. That means either not giving into barking as a method of attention seeking OR by meeting it with an aversive eg. a barking collar. Right now, she gets attention from you if she barks - even if it isn't necessarily all that positive for her. You can try the squirt bottle but many dogs think that's a game, not an aversive.

What mental and physical stimulation does your puppy get? Are you training her and playing games with her?

Edited February 22, 2009 by poodlefan

[persephone]

I would be more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt and think that what she's really learned is that you will pay attention to her if she barks. If she barks, you acknowledge her presence. Even being scolded, or touched to be put outside can count as attention. She may be determined, but I wouldn't think its determination to be dominant. More that most of the time it works, and when it doesn't the natural response is to try harder out of frustration.

(my bolded bit)

[luvsdogs]

Here's a link to the methodology to teaching a dog to bark & shush on cue.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/woofshush

[Erny]

We are doing clicker training and she is getting really good at it.

"Clicker Training" is not a method in itself. All it does is teach the dog a certain 'sound' means "that's the right behaviour, food is following". On its own it will teach your dog what to do, but not what NOT to do.

However, all day she barks if I turn away from her or if I'm on the phone or even go to another room and she gets really persistant. I tell her NO and if she does it again i put her outside. But she will just bark and bark. After a few minutes of silence I go to her and I tell her good girl and let her back in. Within seconds she barks again. And it's a really determined bark.

She's 'working' you. What other training do you do, and what is she like with it? What are your 'house rules' and is she generally compliant? Are there are areas where she is really getting her own gains?

When I tell her NO, she rolls back her gums and barks even louder. We've been doing this for a couple of weeks now and not getting anywhere.

"NO" is not enough in this situation. What bothers me is the part I've highlighted. She rolls back her gums? Is this more serious than what the path of this thread seems to have taken it?

I've never had this problem with a pup before. I know she is challenging me for domination but she just won't give in. I don't even let her walk in the door before me, I feed her after me and have tried to let her know from day one that I'm the boss.

Following the "TOT" program (refer sticky - I think it is at the top of either the training forum or this puppy forum) and also apply NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). I've experienced the "barking when on the phone" behaviour too. Is your pup crate trained? If so it is very useful for those times when you are either about to be on the phone or are on the phone and she starts barking. Don't use it as a punishment as such, just scoot her in the crate without making a fuss. If she continues the barking you can go to another room or outside. The worst thing to do is to give her attention as this is exactly what she wants.