Any Theories?

[Vickie]

I was discussing this with someone recently. I'm after informed responses based on theory rather than guesses.

Here is the situation, dog has been taught to run fast to a particular position and hold that position till released verbally.

If no reward is visible, dog drives into position.

If the reward comes from the hand, dog drives into position.

If the reward is already on the ground in front of the position, dog is hesitant to get into the position.

Anyone got any theories as to why?

Anyone got any theories as to how to overcome it?

Edited February 19, 2009 by Vickie

[haven]

Any food refusal training?

[Vickie]

nope...and the reward is not necessarily food either.

It is an interesting experiment. You could test it with almost anything that a dog already knows. ie if your dogs knows how to run to a mat & drop, ask for that with a bowl of food/or a toy sitting next to the mat and see if the behavior is any different.

[Kavik]

What training have you done to ensure she doesn't self reward without the release? Could this be making her hesitate?

(That's the bit I have problems with with Kaos the self rewarding bit)

[LilBailey]

I got side traked and other people have said simmilar things to what I was going to.

I was thinking hesitate b/c of the temptation

I also was wondering if it nessesary to have the reward there? If it is causing problems why do it?

[ness]

Increased distraction of having it on the ground versus having the object on the handler.

[Vickie]

What training have you done to ensure she doesn't self reward without the release? Could this be making her hesitate?

It is a theoretical question, but it is a good point. I am sure that some things you could do to prevent self reward could cause hesitation, although you would assume that they are not given the opportunity to test this until the behaviour is very solid.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Vickie

[Vickie]

I also was wondering if it nessesary to have the reward there? If it is causing problems why do it?

I think many people would include it as necessary to their proofing schedule. As Ness said, it adds distraction...but the question is how & why. What is going on in their heads and how do you overcome it?

Edited February 19, 2009 by Vickie

[WildatHeart]

Maybe because the dog sees it as a totally different behaviour. There's go to that place. then its' go to that place next to the reward. Hence maybe the dog is confused on what is meant to be happening. ..

[ness]

I think there is an element of uncertainly because they are trying to avoid the distraction and haven't been taught a clear enough release to an object on the ground. They don't fully understand that there job is to get into position as quickly as possible regardless of what is going on or what is in front of them.

ETA. Different context but I had a toy in front of the hoop I had been using to teach a sendaway. She slowed up because she wasn't sure if she should grab the toy but then made the correct decision to sit in the hoop so was relesed to the toy. Next time there was no hesitation in her response. It was straight out regardless of the fact the toy was there and then I released her.

So I guess its just confusion by the dog as to what it is suppose to be doing.

Edited February 19, 2009 by ness

[Vickie]

I wonder if it is about natural prey behaviour?

when you think about it, if a prey driven dog is chasing a moving item, they are moving flat out to get it.

If they approach a stationary item, they tend to creep & crouch.

They may be thinking that an item delivered from your hand is a moving item?

If you throw a ball for a ball motivated dog, they tend to go after it faster than if you release them to fetch one on the ground. For my dogs, their whole posture is different.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Vickie

[haven]

What training have you done to ensure she doesn't self reward without the release? Could this be making her hesitate?

This is much what I'm thinking, hence the food refusal question. The first thing that occurs to me is a potential scenario where the dog has in the past either been trained to leave the item with punishment or has previously (and not even necessarily during this particular exercise) attempted to self reward or snatch the item before release and has been corrected for it and is now attempting to avoid that occuring again.

Perhaps that's not what is going on, but it would be my first consideration to rule out.

Are you saying this behaviour occurs each time reguardless of what the titem is, whether it's a toy or food, a known or unknown object?

[JulesP]

If you have been teaching the dog to go to the item - ie sending to food or toy over a jump then the dog may be confused as to whether it is supposed to get into position (assuming a nose touch) or whether it should go to the item. I can see the dog coming over a walk and thinking 'crap which one does she want me to do here'. Would cause a conflict.

[Vickie]

Are you saying this behaviour occurs each time reguardless of what the titem is, whether it's a toy or food, a known or unknown object?

no I am not saying that b/c it is theoretical. It is a question asked about a behaviour I commonly see, so while I can answer the above for my own dog/s, I cannot for other dogs.. Maybe all of the above it true, depending on the dog. I would say that it seems to be more likely when the dog perceives the object as a reward. An unknown object doesn't really seem to come into play for most of the dogs I see doing this.

[Vickie]

If you have been teaching the dog to go to the item - ie sending to food or toy over a jump then the dog may be confused as to whether it is supposed to get into position (assuming a nose touch) or whether it should go to the item. I can see the dog coming over a walk and thinking 'crap which one does she want me to do here'. Would cause a conflict.

True, and I think in many cases this is exactly what is probably happening...but it does not explain the difference between a straight out stationary release to a toy vs the running release with no equipment in sight.

[Vickie]

Maybe it is as simple as the dog thinking "there's no rush, it's not going anywhere fast"?

[Kavik]

If you have been teaching the dog to go to the item - ie sending to food or toy over a jump then the dog may be confused as to whether it is supposed to get into position (assuming a nose touch) or whether it should go to the item. I can see the dog coming over a walk and thinking 'crap which one does she want me to do here'. Would cause a conflict.

I think this is the problem I have

[JulesP]

[quote name='Vickie' date='19th Feb 2009 - 05:52 PM' post='3439589'

True, and I think in many cases this is exactly what is probably happening...but it does not explain the difference between a straight out stationary release to a toy vs the running release with no equipment in sight.

Not sure what you mean here Vickie??

Talking about agility - my new fav thing!

[haven]

Are you saying this behaviour occurs each time reguardless of what the titem is, whether it's a toy or food, a known or unknown object?

no I am not saying that b/c it is theoretical. It is a question asked about a behaviour I commonly see, so while I can answer the above for my own dog/s, I cannot for other dogs.. Maybe all of the above it true, depending on the dog. I would say that it seems to be more likely when the dog perceives the object as a reward. An unknown object doesn't really seem to come into play for most of the dogs I see doing this.

Ohhh, sorry, I thought we were talking about a specific person/dog/issue, not a general discussion

[J...]

If I place my dog in a sit and lower a piece of food or a toy towards her face, but don't release her to take what I have, she will look away from said toy/food and then look back towards it as I raise it away from her. It's her way of resisting the temptation to self-reward without a release.