LilBailey Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hi All I'm just wondering if when in a trial and the judge calls Right About Turn if you have to do the round your legs turn or if you can do a U-Turn. My BC has (well had) a great turn but I have been doing lots of Agility sides work and also the stuff that Greg Derrett teaches and it must be working as her turn has gone wayward. She has a nice U-turn though. So just wondering if I can use this in a Ob trial or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 It is normally the left about turn where you have a choice of turns, I am pretty sure right about turn (since you are turning away from the dog) the dog turns with you on the outside. I think in left about turns you can either do the pivot turn (where you turn into the dog, and the dog goes around you to end up in heel position) or the dog turns on the inside of you (dog pivots I guess) as you turn. I'll try to find some videos to explain if that doesn't make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 OK here are a few This demonstrates left about turn This one shows the pivot turn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENPtWy1oVMc OK it really is coincidence that both videos show Malinois, honestly I plugged in left about turn and this is what I got I know you don't believe me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 In traditional obedience, "about turn" is always to the right that is, away from your dog. U turn is always to the left, that is in towards your dog. There is no choice as to direction based on the command given by the judge. To go the wrong way, in fact means that the exercise has been done incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBailey Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share Posted February 17, 2009 LOL Yeah Left about is what I ment. The first turn is the turn I thought she had nice but it is not like that, that is a really nice turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 So if you're sticking to GD handling system, you would need to do U left about turn, and the flip finish (i.e. not round the back). Right about isn't a problem as the dog is chasing the turning blind cross body line. Both U turn and flip finish are legal in Ob trials. It's good to try to polish them though - the key thing is that the dog moves it's butt while keeping the head in position. (I know the theory - don't quite have the polished perfection .0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 agreed with Tassie . While I may not be able to polish up Leo's flip finishes and U turns, I am trying to with miss K.... also guided by the fact that she does tend to go wide on the LAT around me Will let you know how it goes, but do whichever one is most comfortable for you and your dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Have been thinking about this too after the GD seminar. Is the only reason that they are so strict on the blind cross because they think the dog has the opportunity to go off and do stuff whilst it is behind you? I am fairly confident that neither of my dogs is likely to go off and play on equipment. Getting the buggers to leave me is hard enough! Any other reasons that it is bad to do the normal left about turn and behind the back finish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Any other reasons that it is bad to do the normal left about turn and behind the back finish? Some other reasons Jules is the dog can take it as a 'disconnection' from you - sometimes when they don't work properly, we tend to turn away and walk off on them . SOME dogs find it a bit difficult with the LAT around your back and therefore do a variety of things . It really depends on the dog, but K definitely responds better to the U turn... less gawking I think most important is what works for you and the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I've only been able to get the flip finish and the U turn left about with Diesel, when doing obedience with Zoe, I found the round the back finish and the pivot turn easier. Probably because I have a better idea of how to teach it now, and they are very different dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I learnt the flip finish and U LAT at Mary Ray camps. She starts by doing a lot of rear-end awareness work, and first of all teaches a stationary 'find heel' - luring it first, and marking the moment when the dog is making the turn with its rear end - the reinforcement is delivered in heel position. She does lots and lots of these, until the movement becomes minimal, and it's mostly the rear end swinging round. (She actually does the exercise on both sides - to balance the dog up, but also for heelwork to music.) When she does the U turn, she's very careful of her footwork, and marks the dog making the same butt shifting movement as it gets out of the way. (Using GD training, you can do lots of inside circle work, including very tight inside circles on the spot, so that the dog can happily withstand pressure on its line.) When she does left turns, she makes sure the dog is swinging its butt out of the way, and marks that and rewards as the dog resumes the parallel heel position before stepping off again, so that there's value in the dog making the turn quickly and neatly to get into heel position again. If any of that makes sense. Oh, and on the blind cross thing - as lp says, it's about maintaining the connection and having the dog always trying to reach the reinforcement zone in front of you. The Derretts do teach the dog to go away - but it's mostly going forward away from you - and you're accelerating to cue that - they reward with a toy when the dog does that. Lateral distance they just build up gradually - the dog is still following the direction the lne is taking (if I've understood it correctly. ) But again, for obedience, ti's what you and the dog are comfortable with unless you really want to work on changing it. GD will say that you can 'break the handling system rules' but you need to be aware that there could be fallout in weakening the dog's understanding - so the dogs may have questions in agility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 totally agree Tassie :rofl: I did heaps of rear end work to teach a U turn (actually never seen Mary Ray, so thumbs up to me )... but I shaped it... did heaps of work to get the dog to *find* that heel spot from a variety of angles by moving their butt. Don't get me wrong, we still have a long way to go for it to look spectacular, but I can see we are making progress You can break the rules, but it does mean that if you want to be true to the GD system, you can't fault the dog for flicking away occasionally.... HOWEVER, I still believe that dogs can contextualise concepts and sports well enough to not do this the majority of the time ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Maybe one of the reasons I don't have problems losing them behind is that they do have a very strong understand of the front reinforcement spot.Not because I have deliberately trained that btw but because at my dog school you spend much of the first 2 levels (pre-puppy & puppy) with the dog in front for exercises. I sometimes have issues with them swinging in front for a reward! I just never feel like I get a good sit with the flip finish. I can see Poppy changing sides in obedience, going to the right rather than staying on the left, if I continue with the left about turn though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Have been thinking about this too after the GD seminar. Is the only reason that they are so strict on the blind cross because they think the dog has the opportunity to go off and do stuff whilst it is behind you? I am fairly confident that neither of my dogs is likely to go off and play on equipment. Getting the buggers to leave me is hard enough! Any other reasons that it is bad to do the normal left about turn and behind the back finish? Think that the dog heels better allround if they do u turns. With Oscar, he returns around, but still moves his backend correctly during a left turn. The downside is that on one occasion, he has tried to outguess me during a left turn by completing a full left about, nearly tripping me over. After watching the Balabanov dvd "The Game", I noticed how much better his dogs backed into left turns. He teaches it first by teaching finish using a cross made of rope on the ground, where the dog is started at 9 o clock from him, and is not allowed to move his body past the centreline. Hard to explain. This is then tranferred into a left turn by firstly stopping mid turn, waiting and making sure the dog gets there by using his back end only. A hand in the collar helps to guide, and later he fades the stop mid turn to a very slow forward movement, until the dog has it down pat. Its something that I am working on with Brydee atm. She tends to want to jump into a left turn, like she is doing a finish. Very frustrating. Using the collar as a guide stops this, and makes her slow down and think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Judges here will call 'Left About Turn' and 'Right About Turn' so you really can't make and mistake . . . For me and my dogs I find that the 'military turn' or flip just makes sense. Once in the ring they are working - heeling means 'at my left side focused the whole time' - why change that for one turn ????????? I just seems to make it easier for the dogs to stay in work mode. The only issue you would have with the flip turn is when the dog physically cannot do it with finese - it really needs to be done well and with attitude or its not worth it. My older three bounce from front to heel position and then ofcourse give the big grin because they know just how clever they are (judges can't help smiling at them - dags they are) - the younger two (14 mths) are learning - I use guiding with lead and food or toy but it doesn't take much. I think using this makes the overall picture of the heeling pattern smoother and more 'professional' (for want of a better word). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I must admit - I was very anti - the U turn before I fully understood how to teach it as sooo many dogs just make it look plain messy. Now that I have a better understanding of how to teach it, I think it's a much better alternative, just as you say BD - why should they leave that position and encourage them to go wide While the finish around me is no biggie in my books, I find that a lot of dogs find the flip finish self rewarding. So while I'm teaching my older boy to also do the U turn and flip, as to whether we will use it in the ring will remain to be seen, but it certainly has improved his actual heeling position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 With the flip finish our judges will penalize extended signals - so when handlers drag their left hand behind their backs trying to get their dogs to go deep enough to be able to turn around and sit squarely and also dogs that jump up and turn around which is what a lot of dogs that find the flip finish self rewarding do. Interesting that I have gone back to around the back finishes....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I got pinged in UD for a flip finish (will admit the dog doesn't actually do flip finishes normally but chose to on this occasion). Never mind as she had failed another exercise but if they want to fail you they are much more likely to find a reason to fail the flip finish then the around the back finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I got pinged in UD for a flip finish (will admit the dog doesn't actually do flip finishes normally but chose to on this occasion). Never mind as she had failed another exercise but if they want to fail you they are much more likely to find a reason to fail the flip finish then the around the back finish. I'm curious on this one as to why you got pinged. Was it because you signalled an around the back finish and the dog did a flip finish (ie., signal and action didn't match), or was it something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Not sure judge didn't like the finish. Shouldn't have mattered which I signalled as long as I did one or the other. I guess the flip was probably a bit messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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