Halti's And Obedience?

[Red Fox]

I took my 20 week old Ridgeback puppy Kei to his first formal obedience lesson last week and found that although we seem to have little trouble walking on lead at home it is a much different story at training where there are other dogs.

He became quite uncontrollable with his pulling and the trainer suggested switching to a martingale (he was wearing a flat collar at the time) for greater control. I was quite happy to do so but halfway through the lesson we he still wasn't co-opperating. The trainer then asked if I would try a halti (black dog infin8). I have never used one before however there were 2 other dogs in the class wearing them and neither seemed to have a problem with it so I agreed to give it a go.

Kei spent the next 30 mins trying to pull it off his nose which I found quite stressful for both of us but did my best to persevere with it. The trainer has suggested that I calmly put it on for a few minutes a day and offer some treats to form a positive association with the halti before next weeks training session.

What I have found is that Kei will allow me to put it on him and will accept the treats but will NOT walk in it. The minute I try and coax him forward he will start pawing at his nose and pulling backwards. While I dont expect him to accept the halti staight away I feel as if we are going backwards with it.

The trainer is quite insistant that I continue with this and I understand her reasoning, however I am beginning to think that a halti is not for us. That said, I am having great results with the martingale during regular walks and training at home. Today wearing the martingale collar we practiced heel and sit comands by walking around the kitchen table (my table is quite large) and putting the most distracting thing I could think of (the cat ) on top of it. No pulling at all and he was very focussed on the task.

I am now starting to wonder if we should drop the halti and use the martingale instead. We are both less stressed this way.

Any advice?

[huski]

I personally don't like haltis. I have used one in the past and Micha hated it. The thing I find most frustrating about haltis is that if I am going to use an aversive tool, I want to be able to control when and if I give the dog a correction and I find that difficult to do with a halti... my dog was never comfortable with it on so it was a constant aversion for him, even when he wasn't pulling. There are a lot of sensitive nerves in the dog's face and the halti would constantly ride up into Micha's eyes. I noticed a huge difference when I put a martingale on him, it was like he didn't even know it was there - it was causing him no irritation at all.

I would also be hesitant to use a halti on a puppy, I think they can cause injury if a dog moves or lunges quickly and I would be way too paranoid about it to use one!

I think the more important thing is how you are using the tool in conjunction with a training program. I would never use a tool I wasn't comfortable with - I think what you are working on at the moment (getting his focus in low distraction environments) is a good idea. The tool you use is only a small part of how you teach the dog

[FionaC]

We briefly tried the Halti (for about 2 minutes in which Mort was almost on the ground trying to rip it off) - we ended up with this one http://www.ozpetshop.com.au/product_info.p...roducts_id/1738 and absolutely love it - he is so much better to walk & we use it for Obedience Classes as well ... the nose strap is only neoprene and doesn't constrict the mouth/nose at all ......

edited to add - we are only just beginning obedience classes with Mort as well - we are also doing a lot of work at home with him between classes - I'd like to get back to just the martingale for walks but at least with the sporn leader one we can still enjoy walks and its not a problem for him to be wearing - if we had persisted with the halti, I think he would have ripped his face apart with his claws trying to get it off - he definitely hated even wearing it for a couple of minutes

Edited February 14, 2009 by FionaC

[Sarah L]

I guess I was lucky with Fyx we had been doing our usual road walks and she was not getting anywhere with walking on a loose leash, mainly because she was so excited to be out in the big wide world. She would lure and walk beside me but then lose it. One night I got sick of it and just marched her home. The next night I took her out and low and behold she walked the whole way and back on a loose leash. From that point on she has been very self controlled on lead when we are walking in the street. At agility trials it's a different story though She gets so excited still, but that's fine I know the more we attend them the calmer she is becoming. I can't believe all it took was for to march her home in disgust.

[WildatHeart]

You said Kei is fine in a martingale so why fix something that isn't broken? (the instructor,not you) In his puppy class there's so many more distraction then what you have at home so if you can work on his focus/attention then he will also behave better while in class in the martingale.

[huski]

You said Kei is fine in a martingale so why fix something that isn't broken? (the instructor,not you) In his puppy class there's so many more distraction then what you have at home so if you can work on his focus/attention then he will also behave better while in class in the martingale.

IMO the instructor should have focused less on the type of tool that the OP "should" use and more on actually teaching the dog how to walk on a loose leash or how to heel.

Daisy picked up heel straight away, it was very easy to lure her and get her attention with a treat. Loose leash walking took a bit longer because there are so many distractions out there for a scent hound, but it was still more about the technique (i.e. how I taught it to her) than it was about the tool I used.

[Red Fox]

I personally don't like haltis. I have used one in the past and Micha hated it. The thing I find most frustrating about haltis is that if I am going to use an aversive tool, I want to be able to control when and if I give the dog a correction and I find that difficult to do with a halti... my dog was never comfortable with it on so it was a constant aversion for him, even when he wasn't pulling. There are a lot of sensitive nerves in the dog's face and the halti would constantly ride up into Micha's eyes. I noticed a huge difference when I put a martingale on him, it was like he didn't even know it was there - it was causing him no irritation at all.

I would also be hesitant to use a halti on a puppy, I think they can cause injury if a dog moves or lunges quickly and I would be way too paranoid about it to use one!

I think the more important thing is how you are using the tool in conjunction with a training program. I would never use a tool I wasn't comfortable with - I think what you are working on at the moment (getting his focus in low distraction environments) is a good idea. The tool you use is only a small part of how you teach the dog

Thanks Huski, I feel exactly the same way. I think that Kei picks up on how uncomfortable I am too which makes it even worse

What really makes me cross is that I KNOW he can walk on a loose leash the majority of the time when he is not so excited to see so many other dogs It's like taking a kid into a toy store and telling him he cant play with anything!

[huski]

Thanks Huski, I feel exactly the same way. I think that Kei picks up on how uncomfortable I am too which makes it even worse

What really makes me cross is that I KNOW he can walk on a loose leash the majority of the time when he is not so excited to see so many other dogs It's like taking a kid into a toy store and telling him he cant play with anything!

Is he very food or toy driven? I train Daisy in a martingale but by far the easiest way to teach her to heel was to use a very high value treat.

ETA: And I wouldn't worry about it too much - he is only young and he's not going to learn heel or loose leash walking straight away.

Edited February 14, 2009 by huski

[FionaC]

I guess I was lucky with Fyx we had been doing our usual road walks and she was not getting anywhere with walking on a loose leash, mainly because she was so excited to be out in the big wide world. She would lure and walk beside me but then lose it. One night I got sick of it and just marched her home. The next night I took her out and low and behold she walked the whole way and back on a loose leash. From that point on she has been very self controlled on lead when we are walking in the street. At agility trials it's a different story though She gets so excited still, but that's fine I know the more we attend them the calmer she is becoming. I can't believe all it took was for to march her home in disgust.

I wish her brother was like that Morty pulls like a steam train (until we got the sporn leader)

[persephone]

IMO the instructor should have focused less on the type of tool that the OP "should" use and more on actually teaching the dog how to walk on a loose leash or how to heel.

[Red Fox]

Is he very food or toy driven? I train Daisy in a martingale but by far the easiest way to teach her to heel was to use a very high value treat.

ETA: And I wouldn't worry about it too much - he is only young and he's not going to learn heel or loose leash walking straight away.

He is totally food driven. If I could go to training with a raw chicken wing in my hand I'd be laughing I am working on finding something that he really loves, maybe some shredded boiled chicken pieces right now I use Nutrience kibble but it seems to be losing its effect.

I feel that once he becomes used to being around the other dogs that he will start to settle down. I dont expect him to learn straight away though and we all know ridgies have a mind of their own

Plus if I cant even get him walking up my corridor in the halti there's no way I will have him wearing it in class on Wednesday.

And yes, I agree it's more about the training than the tool

[JulesP]

You need a high value treat for dog school. Kibble will not cut it there. Use the martingale but I would prefer to see you trying with a flat collar at your pups age.

[huski]

He is totally food driven. If I could go to training with a raw chicken wing in my hand I'd be laughing I am working on finding something that he really loves, maybe some shredded boiled chicken pieces right now I use Nutrience kibble but it seems to be losing its effect.

That is what I use I get some chicken breast or chicken thigh and boil it. I chop it up, its nice and soft and the dogs love it

The first time I ever went to obedience with Daisy I made the mistake of bringing dried liver. She couldn't have given a crap about it, now I make sure if I am going to train with food that it is something very high value that I only bring out at training time. She was a different puppy the next week when I bought "special" treats.

ETA: Kabana is also good, as are those gross luncheon rolls you can get from the supermarket.

Edited February 14, 2009 by huski

[Red Fox]

ETA: Kabana is also good, as are those gross luncheon rolls you can get from the supermarket.

Hmmm... how about that VIP puppy roll? I think I'll try the chicken at our next class too.

[huski]

ETA: Kabana is also good, as are those gross luncheon rolls you can get from the supermarket.

Hmmm... how about that VIP puppy roll? I think I'll try the chicken at our next class too.

I prefer the human quality chicken/luncheon rolls (you get them near where all the kabana and stuff is in Coles) just because its a bit less gross for me to touch than actual dog food They are also good because they aren't expensive and come in smaller sizes than the dog rolls, so you don't have to worry about getting through a whole big roll of dog food or freezing some.

Edited February 14, 2009 by huski

[Clyde]

IMO the instructor should have focused less on the type of tool that the OP "should" use and more on actually teaching the dog how to walk on a loose leash or how to heel.

I agree. I can't stand the quick fixes and especially don't like haltis.

When I took my pup to training the instructor straight away recommended a Halti I firmly declined and we pushed on.

I used cooked chicken, sausage etc initially. Now I use some kind of cooked roll from the pet store. I cant remember, but a healthier version of VIP. I dice it all up, seperate it into glad bags and freeze it. Each time we have a training session I can just pull out a bag a little before hand as it defrosts really quickly.

Persevere with the flat collar. I found it best to train in my yard with no leash - cuts out the fiddly handling so you only have to concentrate on the timing of the reward. It's worked really well for us.

[huski]

I agree. I can't stand the quick fixes and especially don't like haltis.

When I took my pup to training the instructor straight away recommended a Halti I firmly declined and we pushed on.

I used cooked chicken, sausage etc initially. Now I use some kind of cooked roll from the pet store. I cant remember, but a healthier version of VIP. I dice it all up, seperate it into glad bags and freeze it. Each time we have a training session I can just pull out a bag a little before hand as it defrosts really quickly.

Persevere with the flat collar. I found it best to train in my yard with no leash - cuts out the fiddly handling so you only have to concentrate on the timing of the reward. It's worked really well for us.

I got that at obedience too. I politely declined and the instructor asked if I was sure I kept to the martingale (Daisy was about 6 months old and it was the blackdog one). It didn't do much on its own but I like them for safety, I just get in the habit of using them because I have to with Micha, who can slip any flat collar.

Edited February 14, 2009 by huski

[Red Fox]

I prefer the human quality chicken/luncheon rolls (you get them near where all the kabana and stuff is in Coles) just because its a bit less gross for me to touch than actual dog food They are also good because they aren't expensive and come in smaller sizes than the dog rolls, so you don't have to worry about getting through a whole big roll of dog food or freezing some.

Thanks, I haven't seen them before (never looked ) but I'll have a look next time I go shopping

[Red Fox]

I agree. I can't stand the quick fixes and especially don't like haltis.

When I took my pup to training the instructor straight away recommended a Halti I firmly declined and we pushed on.

I think that's what we should have done too

I used cooked chicken, sausage etc initially. Now I use some kind of cooked roll from the pet store. I cant remember, but a healthier version of VIP. I dice it all up, seperate it into glad bags and freeze it. Each time we have a training session I can just pull out a bag a little before hand as it defrosts really quickly.

Thanks for the tip

Persevere with the flat collar. I found it best to train in my yard with no leash - cuts out the fiddly handling so you only have to concentrate on the timing of the reward. It's worked really well for us.

I think we will keep going with the martingale and then eventually switch back to the flat. I put the halti on again last night and we couldn't even walk from my gate to the neighbours! Kei just hates it. Switched back to the martingale and he was more than happy to wear it, but still pulled for the first half of his walk :D Could it just be a stage that he's going through? I often train in the backyard with no leash too and he will co-opperate there... just not out of the house where there are so many distractions

[Mystiqview]

I like using Kabana or just frankfurt. Cut the roll into quarters, then slice it. Not too small that it is hard to handle but small enough that the dog gets the treat without wasting too much time chewing it.

Haltis are only a quick fix like what others have said. I would not even call them a quick fix. I think they are more a masking agent. Take the halti off and the dog goes back to pulling because it has only learnt not to pull with a halti on.

I would do some practice outside of class where there is some high distraction too. I used to also train at a local offleash area. I did it to start with before most of the other people arrived and only used the distraction of the other smells there. Then I moved up to training in the small dog area with some other dogs there.. The other dogs could not come over and disturb me, the training session was VERY short but well driven with food. The dog was then given a life reward later by being allowed to play with his mates.

IMO haltis are given to people at obedience clubs because there is not the time to teach the person to use the tool they have properly. That is where you really need some one on one training, many clubs just do not have the man power to do that. If you get stuck, ask some of the experienced people if they would be willing to come back after class or another time to give you some one on one training.