corvus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh god, the alpha roll. So many lost hours arguing that one back and forth! I want them back! When you watch dogs settling an intense argument, often one dog goes down and gets "pinned" by the other. But if you look really closely at the shift in body weight between the two dogs, the one that goes down always goes down voluntarily. Unless, as someone else said, someone wants to kill! I do actually think most if not all the time CM does it the dogs go down voluntarily. My dog has done that once for me and it was when she nearly accidentally bit me. She was on her back looking mortified before I registered what had happened. I pity anyone who feels a need to encourage that look of abject fear/misery in their dog's eyes directed at them. It is a stupid notion and even the Monks of New Skete who first invented the bloody thing publicly denounce it, now. I don't even know why people want to try to imitate dogs when they are talking to dogs anyway. Do they think dogs are that stupid they don't read the subtle signals a person isn't even aware they are making?? I agree with huski. Us humans are the smart ones, so one would think we would know a better way to get what we want than outright confronting an animal with strong teeth and jaws. It amazes me that as the pathetically non-athletic and weak creatures we are, there are still so many of us that rely on physical force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I agree with huski. Us humans are the smart ones, so one would think we would know a better way to get what we want than outright confronting an animal with strong teeth and jaws. It amazes me that as the pathetically non-athletic and weak creatures we are, there are still so many of us that rely on physical force. Just to clarify, I have no issue with corrections or punishment, if used in the right context and most importantly with the right timing. But I definitely don't see any reason to confront an aggressive dog, or use force to get a dog to respect or obey me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Wouldn't want to agree with me too much, huski. I am way unbalanced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh god, the alpha roll. So many lost hours arguing that one back and forth! I want them back!When you watch dogs settling an intense argument, often one dog goes down and gets "pinned" by the other. But if you look really closely at the shift in body weight between the two dogs, the one that goes down always goes down voluntarily. Unless, as someone else said, someone wants to kill! I do actually think most if not all the time CM does it the dogs go down voluntarily. My dog has done that once for me and it was when she nearly accidentally bit me. She was on her back looking mortified before I registered what had happened. I pity anyone who feels a need to encourage that look of abject fear/misery in their dog's eyes directed at them. I agree with you. I first heard this from K9Force and went and did some reading up on it and came to realise he was 100% correct, most people have no idea what a real alpha roll is, no physical force pushing the submissive dog down at all! I don't bother arguing the semantics of this one, it'd be a fruitless excersize. I like fruit though. I just don't see why it is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I first heard this from K9Force and went and did some reading up on it and came to realise he was 100% correct, most people have no idea what a real alpha roll is, no physical force pushing the submissive dog down at all! I agree. IMO the alpha roll is so despised simply because so many have the wrong understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colliepaws Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I was in that class with you Melbomb! I completely agree with you! I thought that the 'alpha roll' thing was completely inappropriate! I just gently pushed Luka onto his side and gave him a belly rub instead of grabbing his scruff and muzzle and forcing my weight onto him! :p That instructor was terrible and even before I saw you post I was planning on speaking to someone at the club the next time we go about her. I also thought her method of teaching 'drop' was completely inappropriate....not sure how grabbing hold of the dogs front legs and pulling them out in front of them or her alternate method of grabbing their collar and jerking it hard down to the ground is 'teaching' them to drop! :p I am going to give the club the benefit of the doubt that this instructor was perhaps just one bad apple. Hopefully I can change classes but if not then I'm certainly going to be changing clubs...looking around at the other groups none of them seemed to be using the same methods as this instructor so perhaps there is hope. Best of luck with Bomber whereever you end up training with him. There's a good chance I might see you there! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Do you think that in a normal run of the mill obedience class it's appropriate for the instructor to teach the "ceaser"/alpha roll?I'm extremely interested to hear what everyone else's opinions are. :p No. But in experienced hands, not so much a alpha roll, but other harsh correction with excellent timing can have merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin-Genie Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I also thought her method of teaching 'drop' was completely inappropriate....not sure how grabbing hold of the dogs front legs and pulling them out in front of them or her alternate method of grabbing their collar and jerking it hard down to the ground is 'teaching' them to drop! :cool: :p :p My elkhound learnt the drop in just five tries using treats. He was doing it without treats after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) I also thought her method of teaching 'drop' was completely inappropriate....not sure how grabbing hold of the dogs front legs and pulling them out in front of them or her alternate method of grabbing their collar and jerking it hard down to the ground is 'teaching' them to drop! :cool: :p :p My elkhound learnt the drop in just five tries using treats. He was doing it without treats after that. Although I use it myself, not all dogs will successfully train using the lure technique. The "guide, show, place" technique which is referenced in the first quote above (I use the guiding to the ground, rather than the legs in front method) is not being correctly applied IMO if it is being done in the "jerking hard down" manner described. I use this method as well for some dogs, with much success. For some dogs, I'll combine the two methods if needs be. IMO there aren't many methods that are *wrong* .... it is simply the way the handler does them (or the teacher teaches them) that makes them so. Edited February 13, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I was in that class with you Melbomb! I completely agree with you! I thought that the 'alpha roll' thing was completely inappropriate! I just gently pushed Luka onto his side and gave him a belly rub instead of grabbing his scruff and muzzle and forcing my weight onto him! :cool: That instructor was terrible and even before I saw you post I was planning on speaking to someone at the club the next time we go about her. I also thought her method of teaching 'drop' was completely inappropriate....not sure how grabbing hold of the dogs front legs and pulling them out in front of them or her alternate method of grabbing their collar and jerking it hard down to the ground is 'teaching' them to drop! I am going to give the club the benefit of the doubt that this instructor was perhaps just one bad apple. Hopefully I can change classes but if not then I'm certainly going to be changing clubs...looking around at the other groups none of them seemed to be using the same methods as this instructor so perhaps there is hope. Best of luck with Bomber whereever you end up training with him. There's a good chance I might see you there! Hehe i knew it was you fluffypaws, but didn't know if you recognised me and sometimes i get shy I'm sausage lady, Luka thought i was the bomb. :p Gonna have to grab more cuddles from him on Sunday. :p I noticed you posted a thread aswell, are you abit hesitant about continuing training because of the lady we had on Wednesday? I agree with you that the other instructors appeared ok. The guy we had on Sunday was pretty good i thought? I fail to see how some of her techniques were appropriate. And i don't get why she thought that teaching the alpha roll to people would be acceptable in an obedience class? I'm sure there were some owners there that wouldn't know a whole lot about alpha rolling or dominant dogs and will take what she said as gospel. To me that's scary. What really crapped me off was when B was growling at me and she was going "do it, roll him" afterwards she said to the whole class, "well that was good atleast you all get to see what a dominant dog is like" I'm going to talk to the head instructor on Sunday and make my decision from there. If they think that it's approriate to teach that kind of stuff or if they make excuses i think i will be looking else where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I also know how to do the 'guide, show, place' method, from when I did the NDTF course, though it is not my preferred method for my own dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin-Genie Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 IMO there aren't many methods that are *wrong* .... it is simply the way the handler does them (or the teacher teaches them) that makes them so. That probably is true for many things. It doesn't sound as shocking when it is described as 'guide', 'show' and 'place'. However, a trainer who practiced what the OP mentioned would be completely unacceptable to me. I think the best advice my dogs' trainer gave me was that there are different methods of training, so go with your gut instinct. Don't do what you are not comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I also know how to do the 'guide, show, place' method, from when I did the NDTF course, though it is not my preferred method for my own dogs. That's all I ever use... and have trained many many dogs that way... using heaps of praise too, of course.. but no food treats :p It needs to be done gently.. and like with any exercise, on soft surfaces, and in a relaxed manner... It usually doesn't take many goes... Th 'alpha' roll... yep- dangerous if used as a physical show of force by someone who knows no better... :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colliepaws Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Although I use it myself, not all dogs will successfully train using the lure technique. The "guide, show, place" technique which is referenced in the first quote above (I use the guiding to the ground, rather than the legs in front method) is not being correctly applied IMO if it is being done in the "jerking hard down" manner described. I use this method as well for some dogs, with much success. For some dogs, I'll combine the two methods if needs be.IMO there aren't many methods that are *wrong* .... it is simply the way the handler does them (or the teacher teaches them) that makes them so. Erny - I am sure you are completely right that some dogs will not be able to be 'lured' into a down - I'm certainly no dog trainer! I guess I am quite lucky that Luka is an easy to lure puppy and learnt drop quickly and now drops on a hand signal. It sounds like you 'guide' the dogs you are training which sounds like a very effective method but it's definitely not what this instructor demonstrated. I think you are spot on and that it's not the method so much as the handler/instructor. The thing that really bothered me about this instructor was that she didn't seem to think that luring was even an option! The only ways she told the class to drop their dogs was the above (plus an even worse method of kneeling next to the dog, grabbing their front leg furthest away from you and pulling it towards to while pushing your dogs body away from you to get him/her to fall over! ) and it made me cringe to watch these owners with their young dogs being jerked all over the place by owners who thought this trainer knew what she was on about. Poor dogs hadn't a clue what was going on and it really didn't look like 'learning' to me.... Hehe i knew it was you fluffypaws, but didn't know if you recognised me and sometimes i get shy I'm sausage lady, Luka thought i was the bomb. Gonna have to grab more cuddles from him on Sunday. I noticed you posted a thread aswell, are you abit hesitant about continuing training because of the lady we had on Wednesday? I agree with you that the other instructors appeared ok. The guy we had on Sunday was pretty good i thought? I fail to see how some of her techniques were appropriate. And i don't get why she thought that teaching the alpha roll to people would be acceptable in an obedience class? I'm sure there were some owners there that wouldn't know a whole lot about alpha rolling or dominant dogs and will take what she said as gospel. To me that's scary. What really crapped me off was when B was growling at me and she was going "do it, roll him" afterwards she said to the whole class, "well that was good atleast you all get to see what a dominant dog is like" I'm going to talk to the head instructor on Sunday and make my decision from there. If they think that it's approriate to teach that kind of stuff or if they make excuses i think i will be looking else where. Yep Luka would have gone home with you and your sausages in a heartbeat! :cool: He loves people who admire him and will be happy to soak up any cuddles you have for him on Sunday. I didn't actually put it together that you and Bomber were DOLers until I saw your post. I'm so clueless. You should have just started calling me 'fluffypaws' then it would have clicked that I knew you and Bomber! I thought the guy we had on Sunday was pretty good too...and the other instructors seemed fine from what I saw of them...I think I will go back just because I think there's the potential for it to be quite good there but if I get put in her class again I think I will just go home! Don't know if I could bite my tongue through another hour with her! I really felt for you when she was hassling you to roll B! What a shocking instructor she was....I agree with you - I don't think rolling a dog has anything to do with obedience but after she'd made us all do it she kept carrying on about how everyone's dogs were doing so much better afterwards. :p What the?...... And yes it worries me too that the other people in the class will think her methods are the right way to train a dog. Poor people who don't have the wonderful world of DOL to fall back on when they have questions! I just love DOL! :p If you let me know when you're going to talk to the head instructor on Sunday I would be happy to come with you to back you up...just so they don't think it was just you who thought she was teaching inappropriate things in an obedience class.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm going to talk to the head instructor on Sunday and make my decision from there. If they think that it's approriate to teach that kind of stuff or if they make excuses i think i will be looking else where. If they make excuses go elsewhere. The other issue with some techniques is that while they may be appropriate for an experienced person with an eye for when to use them, they are often not appropriate for an inexperienced person. When it comes to club classes designed for teaching good manners to pets, if the kids in the household can't use the technique appropriately, then it's usually not a good idea to teach it imo. Sure some techniques have a place, but why you would start out with macho stuff in a club class is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 If you let me know when you're going to talk to the head instructor on Sunday I would be happy to come with you to back you up...just so they don't think it was just you who thought she was teaching inappropriate things in an obedience class.. :p OK thank you that would be great. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildatHeart Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I wonder.....if that instructor is a doler?........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) It doesn't sound as shocking when it is described as 'guide', 'show' and 'place'. No it doesn't. And sometimes it is not as easy as it sounds either as with some dogs there can be a bit of initial resistance until they understand what it is you're trying to achieve. But that still doesn't mean that the 'guide show place' method is about jerking the dog hard to the ground. Not directing this at you or anyone - merely making a general comment. I worked with a dog a few days ago - he's about 2 yo and never been taught the drop. Lure .... not interested in it enough to bother. Resisted the GSP method on the first go, although did acquiesce in a reasonably short space of time. It was a bit mucky on the first go, but each repetition was better. After 3 reps the dog was doing it with no resistance and almost on command. Not all credit to the method by itself .... he's a great little dog, this guy. An Amstaff, btw :p. Edited February 13, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildatHeart Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I bet she won't try and pull the alpha roll thing again :p :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Pretty unlikely that the instructor is a DOLiner - I know which club they are talking about :p . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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