Melbomb Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Do you think that in a normal run of the mill obedience class it's appropriate for the instructor to teach the "ceaser"/alpha roll? I'm extremely interested to hear what everyone else's opinions are. Edited February 12, 2009 by Melbomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think it's totally inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Not unless the handler knows a very good plastic surgeon. It's not an appropriate correction in any training context IMO and if done to the wrong dog, the handler may be minus some facial features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 *shivers going down spine* Definitely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 no no no and ... no what a stupid thing to teach. most dogs dont need it, and a really out of control dog would gladly scratch or bite when subjected to it. some people who call themselves trainers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 NO! Very dangerous IMO. Should NOT EVER be taught in a group obedience class setting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westielover Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Totally inappropriate .... a rescue dog of mine (BC) was alpha rolled by a complete stranger and the dog has now become fear aggressive to the point of biting people. The alpha roll was the trigger and the behaviour escalated form there. Alpha rolls have dire consequences for fearful dogs! Why would you need to alpha roll a dog? In the dog world, the only reason one dog will forcefully flip another dog on its back is to kill it. In the alpha roll over, physical force is used. Many dogs flip over on their backs of their own accord to show submission, but this action is not the same as the alpha roll. It is completely voluntary. In my opinion alpha rolling is dangerous and unnecessary as a training technique. By performing what seems like an attack to a dog, humans leave themselves vulnerable to a bite to the face, and they lower the trust and respect their dogs have for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Not unless the handler knows a very good plastic surgeon. It's not an appropriate correction in any training context IMO and if done to the wrong dog, the handler may be minus some facial features. alpha rolls seldom work for a variety of reasons..... never be appropriate for any trainer to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I would think it would be incredibly inappropriate too, and I really don't know why so many people recommend it. I think it's a good way to get bitten - some dogs may take it, but there would be many who would take you up on the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ooops maybe i didn't explain that very well. If it was taught so that each person could do it to their own dog? The trainer didn't do it personally to unknown dogs. Does that change anyone's thought's on it at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 People may well get bitten by their own dogs too if they do this - especially if dog is hyped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 This is actually one of the reasons why I hate shows like CMs - I know of one person in particular who watched the show religiously, decided that CM was the expert and proceeded to implement an alpha roll on their young puppy And they wouldn't listen to me because CM is the expert. I'm not saying that CM encourages this but many people aren't smart enough to work out what is TV and what is reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Ooops maybe i didn't explain that very well. If it was taught so that each person could do it to their own dog? The trainer didn't do it personally to unknown dogs. Does that change anyone's thought's on it at all? No, because IMO it is still unnecessary to use an alpha roll as part of your training. I don't need to physically pin my dogs on the ground to make them see me as the alpha, and TBH, I don't know what I would supposedly accomplish by doing so. When Daisy was a puppy she would growl at us if we tried to move her off the lounge. We were always taught to growl back, scruff her and force her on to the ground (not alpha rolling her but forcefully remove her). This made her behaviour so much worse, as she would take me up on the challenge and just became more snappy and she would not back down. Thank god some DOLers put me in the right direction because confronting an over confident dog like Daisy just made the situation worse and her behaviour could easily have escalated. If you are doing things right you wouldn't need to use an alpha roll as part of your training, and there are much easier and more effect ways to rectify over confident behaviour/growling etc than pinning the dog on the ground. Edited February 12, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ooops maybe i didn't explain that very well. If it was taught so that each person could do it to their own dog? The trainer didn't do it personally to unknown dogs. Does that change anyone's thought's on it at all? Nope - not at all. Why on earth do people with normal, every day dogs need to perform an alpha roll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 People may well get bitten by their own dogs too if they do this - especially if dog is hyped up. Exactly. I have to say i was completely shocked and i couldn't quite understand where they were coming from to teach other people to do it. My dog is extremely dominant and barely listens to me hence why we have re-started obedience, i certainly didn't think that type of thing was an appropriate obedience command. I could see it ending badly with B because of his dominance and i know he doesn't see me as pack leader. He was completely excited from all the barking and other dogs etc aswell. Anyway i did it against my better judgement because i was the only one hesitating and the trainer kept egging me to do it. End result was my dog growling at me and trying to nip me. Now i'm at a loss with what to do. I probably shouldn't give up on the obedience club but yeah..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 People may well get bitten by their own dogs too if they do this - especially if dog is hyped up. Exactly. I have to say i was completely shocked and i couldn't quite understand where they were coming from to teach other people to do it. My dog is extremely dominant and barely listens to me hence why we have re-started obedience, i certainly didn't think that type of thing was an appropriate obedience command. I could see it ending badly with B because of his dominance and i know he doesn't see me as pack leader. He was completely excited from all the barking and other dogs etc aswell. Anyway i did it against my better judgement because i was the only one hesitating and the trainer kept egging me to do it. End result was my dog growling at me and trying to nip me. Now i'm at a loss with what to do. I probably shouldn't give up on the obedience club but yeah..... Don't walk away from this club Melbomb, run. And never ignore your gut, no matter who the instuctor is. If you don't like what's being taught, just don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Whereabouts are you located, Mel? Someone might be able to recommend you a club you feel more comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Your spot on Poodlefan and because i wasn't comfortable doing it but did it anyway i really feel like a knob today and that i may have ruined B in some way. Drama queen i know. At the end of the lesson the trainer said to me "you have a very dominant dog there"! Which i knew already. Doesn't make him bad but then last night i saw other behaviours that weren't good. He jumped on, growling and snarling at the instructors dog for one and that was just before the alpha rolling incident and i wonder if that was why they forced the issue? I'm sure they meant well. He was also very scared when we first rocked up which is not like him, he is usually over confident. I guess the general consensus is leave the alpha roll to Ceaser. My thought's exactly. I just don't want to give up though and leaving the club i'd feel like a failure, or that they would think i'm walking away because my dog is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbomb Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Whereabouts are you located, Mel? Someone might be able to recommend you a club you feel more comfortable with. I'm in Adelaide. The thing is this club actually came really highly recommended, so i feel like maybe it's just me and that particular instructor was maybe just having a bad night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Whereabouts are you located, Mel? Someone might be able to recommend you a club you feel more comfortable with. I'm in Adelaide. The thing is this club actually came really highly recommended, so i feel like maybe it's just me and that particular instructor was maybe just having a bad night? I don't think his dodgey training methods can be put down to him just having a bad night - maybe he is just a bad trainer and the other ones there are ok. Have you ever tried doing the triangle of temptation with B? (link is pinned above). I found it made a big difference with Daisy when she was going through her terrible adolescent age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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