Cosmolo Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 How have you been told to deal with the mouthing exactly? Ignore? Correct? Redirect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Maybe 'firm' just means to be consistent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If we yelp, growl or shout etc he doesnt take any notice. In fact soemtimes it makes him worse! Okay, now that you know all the advice you have been given doesn't work for you, just as it all didn't work for me either, and for many many other new pup owners, may I direct you back to my previous post? Don't growl or yelp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Maybe 'firm' just means to be consistent? I wish it was, but catandgrant is talking about the pup being 'dominant', so the trainer's meaning has been taken that way. Leading new owners to believe in pup 'dominance' is another bit of common wisdom I have a dispute with as well, but I'll leave that issue for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I did the yelping and the growling for a couple of days, when she grew wise to that she got scruffed and put on her side with me baring my teeth and growling. People have always commented that she is not an overly mouthy pup especially for a Stafford. I wasn't prepared to tolerate any mouthiness towards people, I have elderly parents with fragile skin and a 4 yr old. She was in no way harmed but definitely put in her place. My Rotti treated her exactly the same way when she got too bitey with him. I always think it's best to stick to basics with pups and what they would clearly understand in a pack. Other dogs aren't going to distract puppies to stop them getting too cheeky so why should we. You could also firmly hold his muzzle and growl. I do this for clients dogs who are getting mouthy. Make sure you don't hurt him but let him know you are in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximum Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I had Max's dog trainer around on the weekend. Short story is that Max is walking ALL over me and I have to be a lot more firm with him. Will that change who you are? I mean, are you a firm personality to begin with or do you now have to become one? I have a dispute with this sort of advice for two reasons: 1) Asking a person to change their personality and maintain an attitude which does not come naturally to them will surely lead to them not being able to maintain it consistently. I can personally attest to this as a fact. And consistency is the key to success or failure. 2) Leading on from (1), it's very easy easy for a person/trainer who has success because they have a firm and dominating personality to tell a person who isn't the firm and dominating type to become firm and dominating - and voila the training will work for you too! Too easy in fact, which is why the advice is given so freely. Declaring that a timid person should alter their personality to suit your training style is a major flaw. Most of us aren't cut out to be Sergeant Majors barking out commands and demanding respect and discipline at all times, otherwise every army or organisation in the world would be all chiefs and no indians. There are other methods of training which don't require easy-going personalities to change themselves into hard-arsed disciplinarians. Clicker training is one example which requires no firmess/dominance to produce positive results. Every person's personality is different like a box of chocolates and that's all I have to say about that. By nature I'm a bit of a control freak, not sure whether I'm actually dominant as a rule. But I tend to be fairly easy going a lot of the time too. Max's trainer was really talking about consistency with me - I tend to let Max get away with stuff when I'm in a relaxed mood at home, which doesn't do either of us any favours. Confuses him and frustrates me when I'm in a not so relaxed mood! The thing I like about this trainer is that he's very 'respectful' of the way I wish my animals to live with me. He always asks if Max is allowed to do something, e.g. get on the lounge, before he offers a way to correct him. He says there's no right or wrong way in terms of behaviour (within reason, of course!) and that it's really the way I'd like Max to behave. If I'm cool with him getting on the lounge, then that's fine. If I'm not ok with him putting his paws on the coffee table (and I'm not!), then the trainer helps me to address it. I take everything he says 'on board' and decide if I'm comfortable with it before I use it on Max. I get just as much help from reading and talking to others, but I reckon I lucked out with this guy - he's a keeper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Max's trainer was really talking about consistency with me - I tend to let Max get away with stuff when I'm in a relaxed mood at home, which doesn't do either of us any favours. Confuses him and frustrates me when I'm in a not so relaxed mood! That pretty much sums up most people/owners I think! Including myself. So when you were saying 'taking the hard line' to be firm you just mean consistent as in 'don't give in'? What breed is Max? I'm sorry I didn't pick up on it if you mentioned it earlier. And he's 5 months old? Catandgrant's pup is only 9 weeks old and I am concerned she is talking about her pup being 'dominant' and 'winning' and trying the growling suggestions on the little tyke. And I start getting really concerned when I see Clyde for example in the post before yours suggesting aggressive scruff throws and growling and teeth baring techniques which worked with a Staffordshire Bull Terrier but I literally gulp at the thought of a new owner with a sensitive 9 week old Cocker Spaniel puppy reading that as something that works and is worth trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I do use corrections of some kind for mouthy pups- extinction training/ ignoring can be the worst thing for owners to try with persistent pups for the reasons i mentioned in the other biting thread and redirecting onto a toy without correcting/ ceasing the behaviour first can teach the pup that mouthing results in a game. The type and level of correction depends on the puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 With my pup (and pups in the past) I've had most success with an interupt (call it a correction if you like) - mine is a fairly gruff "Uh-uh" - pretty well immediately followed by giving the pup a legal chew object. If the pup sticks with that, after a little while I will praise him for chewing on the legal object. I don't usually make a game of that at that time, for the reasons Cosmolo mentioned - though I will play games with toys and tuggies at other times (as I like to use toys as rewards and motivators.) I think it's really important that pups learn to distinguish between objects they're allowed to chew, and those they're not. This means that when they get to teething, and must chew, they're pretty clear about what is OK, and if they make a mistake, they're easy to re-direct. If a pup got really worked up, and wouldn't respond to the interrupt/redirect, I would give the pup a short time-out in a pen or crate. My pup, now 20 weeks, has developed a lovely soft bite, and now that he's teething big time, if he's very calm and gentle, I will sometimes allow him to mouth my hand while I massage his gums and cheeks - but only for a while, and only when he's calm. He also usually responds very well to the interrupt, and will re-direct himself - good boy. Consistency is certainly key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximum Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Max's trainer was really talking about consistency with me - I tend to let Max get away with stuff when I'm in a relaxed mood at home, which doesn't do either of us any favours. Confuses him and frustrates me when I'm in a not so relaxed mood! That pretty much sums up most people/owners I think! Including myself. So when you were saying 'taking the hard line' to be firm you just mean consistent as in 'don't give in'? What breed is Max? I'm sorry I didn't pick up on it if you mentioned it earlier. And he's 5 months old? Catandgrant's pup is only 9 weeks old and I am concerned she is talking about her pup being 'dominant' and 'winning' and trying the growling suggestions on the little tyke. And I start getting really concerned when I see Clyde for example in the post before yours suggesting aggressive scruff throws and growling and teeth baring techniques which worked with a Staffordshire Bull Terrier but I literally gulp at the thought of a new owner with a sensitive 9 week old Cocker Spaniel puppy reading that as something that works and is worth trying. Yep, I have a tendency to overstate the situation. I meant being consistent with what he is and isn't allowed to do and, in particular, NOT giving in when he's being stubborn. That's my biggest problem - when I'm really tired, I sometimes just don't have the energy to say "get DOWN, Max!" a million times in 5 minutes. The current bane of my life is paws on coffee table. I have a HUGE 'asian-style' coffee table and if I say no, he just moves a foot or so down the table and does it again! Round the entire perimeter of the table!!! *LOL* Drives me crazy. Since the weekend and me making sure that I don't miss any behaviour that needs correcting, he's a lot better. This morning, even a calm "Down, Max" said once was enough to stop him. Next step is getting him to leave the bloody cats alone! Yes, he's 5 months. And he's a mutt - poodle/maltese cross. Very cute and VERY smart. I thought I was a good manipulator until I met this dog... I agree with your comments on Catandgrant's pup. I thought much the same as they do though, when Max was about that age. Until my trainer said that dogs that age really don't use dominant behaviour - they basically just do what they want to do, until they're old enough to learn. I really can't remember 100% what he said, but I stopped treating Max as him being dominant and just had fun with him until he was a little older. Everything's good, so long as nobody gets hurt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanya Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Hi, Well im in the same vote also at the moment, 4, 7week old Stafford puppies who like to all gang up on me when i am trying to give them some affection. They will sit nice and quietly for the first minute or so, tails wagging,lapping it all up, and then its like their little minds change to attatck mode and with 4 pups on each corner of your shirt, pants etc it can get a bit much especially when they actually grab more than the clothing My method of training,discipline, dominance, well what ever you want to call it, is first a big aarr(in deep voice)and click and point fingers at the same time. And it is working, bit slower than one would hope, but we have progress. They will most of the time stop and sit straight away(notice i said most). I usually make sure i have toys also,when i want to pat them etc, to redirect then to something they can have, just in case. The boys are going to their new homes in 2 weeks so want to be on top of it before they go. You have to be persistant though if you want them stop naughty habits..... Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Okay, now that you know all the advice you have been given doesn't work for you, just as it all didn't work for me either, and for many many other new pup owners ... After one whole weekend? Throwing out the method given so quickly may be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don't know what or all of what technique/s the trainer gave, but chucking it out as a failure only after it has been applied for a few days is somewhat hasty IMO. Perhaps the OP needs additional techniques (with my own pup I used several different things - based on what I could manage at the very moment and on exactly what it was the pup was doing) to add to her repertoire, but I disagree that one can claim in this instance that because pup is still mouthing/biting the technique should be chucked away. There is the extinction burst too ..... usually that's a sign that what you're doing IS working. Sometimes it is just a matter of continuing and sometimes it is a time when a little extra is required. But not something that I'd give advice on to cease what they've been doing. Stop that at the wrong time during the extinction burst and you make matters worse. To the OP - this is not something the pup necessarily "grows out of". Think of it more as a "phase the pup is going through". Keep working on it through the phase and you're more likely to come out of it the other end with improved behaviour from your pup. If your methods don't seem to even be diminishing the mouthing/biting, contact your trainer who should be able to adjust the 'program' he/she has given you to something more effective. Don't expect the behaviour to be perfect after just a couple of days, and don't lose hope. It is a very normal puppy phase but you do need to be able to show the pup each and every time that it is not something that it is going to achieve anything it desires from. Don't growl or yelp. I've been closely watching my new Cocker pup with my older 18 month boy and any growling or any noise like a yelp/yap is a signal of of challenge = 'game-on'. Anthony ..... what happens later on when a child or person might make a noise that your dog perceives as a growl or a yelp/yip? Avoiding it doesn't right it and better to work with it when the pup is young rather than when it is older IMO. Edited March 4, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 After one whole weekend? Throwing out the method given so quickly may be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don't know what or all of what technique/s the trainer gave, but chucking it out as a failure only after it has been applied for a few days is somewhat hasty IMO. I personally would discard a method immediately if it results in exciting the pup into nipping/biting even more than if it wasn't used at all. And you can pretty much tell from the first attempt if it has the opposite effect to what's intended so you don't really need a week or two of further frustration and despair to come to the same conclusion. Anthony ..... what happens later on when a child or person might make a noise that your dog perceives as a growl or a yelp/yip? Avoiding it doesn't right it and better to work with it when the pup is young rather than when it is older IMO. I'm observing from just my one pup that it is something they grow out of it so it only applies to young puppies. Now the younger one is around 9 months old, her behaviour is evolving into more adult form where they both use more grown-up dog body-language stances to initiate game play. When younger, the pup would just launch herself at him willy-nilly and the game-on would only be if he reacted and made a noise. Silence and no reaction from him would mean no game and so she would stop. I'm guessing now that a pup acquiring body-language reading skills as it matures is a likely explanation as to why some pups suddenly just 'grow out of it' by themselves anyway. The same principle is advocated by professionals to train pups not to jump up on people, ie, no reaction or noise, ignore and they'll stop. Push back, squeal, wave your hands around etc etc and it's 'game-on'. So I'm not advocating anything new or radical here. Just the same principle for one puppy behaviour applied to another puppy behaviour, which is essence is all the exact same behaviour anyway - it's all just a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keds Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Is it ok to let a puppy 7 weeks bit if she is just playing gentley or is that teaching bad habits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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