corvus Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I've been practising shaping with Kivi lately because he's a nutter and has way too much energy and I was looking for something to get him focused. I'm pretty new at clicker training and I was wondering if anyone has any exercises or suggestions for getting Kivi to think smaller. I've been teaching him to lift each front foot when I indicate them with my foot (no reason why, just something to do). He gets it and does it pretty reliably, but I want to try to refine it a bit and get him to lift his feet less. I was trying to teach him the concept of more movement and less movement last night with getting him to go from side to side, but I think it was a bit of a fluke when he got it and he didn't really understand what he was doing. I tried clicking the moment he lifted a foot, but again, he didn't seem to get it because he would just keep lifting the foot even after I'd clicked. And if I held off clicking he'd lift it MORE because he thought it wasn't working and needed to be more obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I've been practising shaping with Kivi lately because he's a nutter and has way too much energy and I was looking for something to get him focused. I'm pretty new at clicker training and I was wondering if anyone has any exercises or suggestions for getting Kivi to think smaller. I've been teaching him to lift each front foot when I indicate them with my foot (no reason why, just something to do). He gets it and does it pretty reliably, but I want to try to refine it a bit and get him to lift his feet less. I was trying to teach him the concept of more movement and less movement last night with getting him to go from side to side, but I think it was a bit of a fluke when he got it and he didn't really understand what he was doing. I tried clicking the moment he lifted a foot, but again, he didn't seem to get it because he would just keep lifting the foot even after I'd clicked. And if I held off clicking he'd lift it MORE because he thought it wasn't working and needed to be more obvious. I'm pretty shite at shaping but I'm getting better. The theory is you reward the 'better ones'. So in your case, it'd be rewarding 8 out of 10 and withholding the reward on the highest lifts and gradually shaping it down. Not sure how useful that's going to be. Actually, teaching the concept of more of less movement is going to be quite a feat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Try using the food treat as a lure .... as he lifts his foot, move the lure slightly to the same side as the front foot. This shifts his balance and you might find that he places his foot down more quickly, before it reaches the height he's presently lifting it to. Seeing as you've trained him to this, continue to use the clicker to click at just the moment he picks up his foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I've been practising shaping with Kivi lately because he's a nutter and has way too much energy and I was looking for something to get him focused. I'm pretty new at clicker training and I was wondering if anyone has any exercises or suggestions for getting Kivi to think smaller. I've been teaching him to lift each front foot when I indicate them with my foot (no reason why, just something to do). He gets it and does it pretty reliably, but I want to try to refine it a bit and get him to lift his feet less. I was trying to teach him the concept of more movement and less movement last night with getting him to go from side to side, but I think it was a bit of a fluke when he got it and he didn't really understand what he was doing. I tried clicking the moment he lifted a foot, but again, he didn't seem to get it because he would just keep lifting the foot even after I'd clicked. And if I held off clicking he'd lift it MORE because he thought it wasn't working and needed to be more obvious. Corvus, I think you live in the Shire... would you like to schedule a shaping session one day? I LOVE shaping!!!!! It helped me heaps when someone actually showed me how to do it (thanks LP ). Btw I do think what you are trying to teach is pretty advanced (as you are asking for a very small variation for the dog to understand) so maybe try with something easier to shape and come back it it later when you are more comfortable with shaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Laffi, you and I need to get together! We live in Jannali as well. :D Also, you promised me a frisbee demo. I don't think we have much planned this weekend if you are free. I think what I'm asking him is a bit much for him as well, but I guess we have to start somewhere. It seemed easier to me to aim to shape a small, simple movement. Unfortunately, he doesn't do very many small movements and if he does he isn't really aware of them, so he doesn't seem to know what I'm clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 We made some progress tonight using a bit of luring. What I'm trying to do with the more and less is teach him two different signals, one for a small movement and one for more movement and then sort of generalise it. He wasn't really getting it going sideways last night, but tonight he was getting there with lifting his paw. I managed to get him to do a tiny one by having him do it from a down, using a signal right on the ground with my hand and clicking for the smaller ones, then even smaller as the theory goes. I was clumsy, but he got the gist of it. Making it into a bigger movement was easier because he already knows "paw" so I just changed the signal so it was more like the one for a small movement, only higher and more enthusiastic. I don't really know what we have achieved, but it would be pretty cool if he was able to generalise the concept of more and less by the "bigness" of the signal. It has gotten me thinking... My partner gets a very enthusiastic drop out of him with a very enthusiastic hand signal. It's just one more step to get a subdued response from a subdued hand signal... Of course, now he's climbing the walls again because it was all so exciting. It occurs to me that I don't give him enough big hugs and treats when he does what I was looking for. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozjen Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Laffi, you and I need to get together! We live in Jannali as well. :D Also, you promised me a frisbee demo. I don't think we have much planned this weekend if you are free.I think what I'm asking him is a bit much for him as well, but I guess we have to start somewhere. It seemed easier to me to aim to shape a small, simple movement. Unfortunately, he doesn't do very many small movements and if he does he isn't really aware of them, so he doesn't seem to know what I'm clicking. Not 100o/o sure what you are aiming for but if I am interpatating in correctly then you might be better with the dog targeting a marker with its paw to help establish the position/level you want the paw at. Two of the most useful things I taught my dog was to target with her nose or paw, opens up heaps of tricks and makes things so much easier for the dog to understand what I want. Dogs don't have our concept of distance to determine the height you want but if you start with a marker you can remove marker once behaviour and position is established. The clicker and free shaping are great when it comes to training. Jenna my Aussie is my first clicker trained dog, so she has taught me alot but I still have heaps to learn if you want some ideas for tricks check out her Youtube site OZPAWFX. Only a few of her tricks there as it is very hard to try and film at the same time as give the commands especially as she picks up on the smallest hand signal and goes with that rather than the vocal command at times. Mind you don't blame her for blocking out my voice, I need to put a gag on at times. While targeting seems boring here are just a few tricks that are simple to teach once you have the targeting: turn light on/off, close the door/drawer, cross your paws, which hand,limp, high step, march on spot, cock your leg, blow bubbles in your water dish. stand on top of upturned small waterdish or inside(all 4 paws), draw or paint on paper(in conjunction with other commands),hide your head between your legs, lift two paws on same side, stand tall on two legs, walk on two legs, do a handstand, go to a set spot, contacts in agility training, the list is endless. The most important thing to remember is that it is the journey not the destination that counts so have fun, fun ,fun, training is more about the relationship building than the end trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I have a dog that quickly gets discouraged if he doesn't get rewarded when shaping - so if I have reached a certain stage in the behaviour and want to take it a step further, I click and treat with one piece of kibble for what he is doing correctly and click and jackpot with a handful of kibble when he takes it to the next level. He knows the pattern now and will start looking for how to move forward - if he tries, no matter the result, he gets one piece of kibble which just makes him try harder :D Not sure if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I'm not sure if I'll have much useful input into this thread, but here's my ramblings anyway One of my girls I have clicker trained tricks with since a pup by shaping but didn't realise it at the time as I'm only now starting to learn what shaping is. She is much quicker to pick up new things than my other girl who I haven't done much clicker training with, and done no trick training with at all. The beauty I've found of shaping with a clicker is it has allowed my girl the ability to learn better. I taught her tonight in about 10 minutes to offer her front 2 paws on a small stool - had a bit of waiting around for her to offer a look and a paw, etc, but we got there with a teensy bit of luring included at the start! Got my other girl out who hasn't been trained the same (older rescue girl who hasn't been with me long) and she just won't work the same way! Too hyped up on the treat and won't think for herself, so I thought I'd try something simple like sits from drops and vice versa with the clicker, so I guess I'll keep doing that and simple things until she understands the clicker better! Waiting for behaviours from her is going to be a long wait :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 We made some progress tonight using a bit of luring. What I'm trying to do with the more and less is teach him two different signals, one for a small movement and one for more movement and then sort of generalise it. He wasn't really getting it going sideways last night, but tonight he was getting there with lifting his paw. I managed to get him to do a tiny one by having him do it from a down, using a signal right on the ground with my hand and clicking for the smaller ones, then even smaller as the theory goes. I was clumsy, but he got the gist of it. Making it into a bigger movement was easier because he already knows "paw" so I just changed the signal so it was more like the one for a small movement, only higher and more enthusiastic. I don't really know what we have achieved, but it would be pretty cool if he was able to generalise the concept of more and less by the "bigness" of the signal. It has gotten me thinking... My partner gets a very enthusiastic drop out of him with a very enthusiastic hand signal. It's just one more step to get a subdued response from a subdued hand signal... Of course, now he's climbing the walls again because it was all so exciting. It occurs to me that I don't give him enough big hugs and treats when he does what I was looking for. :D So you are trying to teach both a small and a bigger leg lift at the same time? This is likely to be confusing for the dog and he may get frustrated as you keep changing criteria on him. I would pick whether you want a big or a small lift and shape towards that. If you really want to teach both, maybe teach right leg small lift, left leg big lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I agree with Kavik. Especially if this is a newer shaping dog, I would assume that this is a little too much to ask at the moment - dogs find it difficult to work out the difference between a 'big' or 'small' leg move for example. I would focus on getting it right the way he is doing it now and getting a really strong behaviour and then refining it. Not sure if I'm the one to help though, but gee it can be hard I tried to teach my dog to cover his eyes (success) and later to hold his paw there... it was quite difficult to get the timing right for him to 'hold' the paw there, and we never really got the full hold...... but I get slack with my training :rolleyes: Perhaps if you want a smaller leg lift, try and click the moment he lifts the paw up, not when he gets to full height?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 So you are trying to teach both a small and a bigger leg lift at the same time? This is likely to be confusing for the dog and he may get frustrated as you keep changing criteria on him. I would pick whether you want a big or a small lift and shape towards that. Oh ... I didn't realise Corvus was trying to train both things at the one time. Definitely agree with Kavik. One thing at a time given they are so closely the same thing - VERY confusing for the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildatHeart Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) There is great way to let yourself understand how to shape using a clicker (its heaps of fun too). Get someone to help you and get them to lay out a bunch of different objects on a table. Like for instance, a cloths peg, a biro, one of those small toy cars, figurines, anything at all. Explain to your helper that you want them to think of something that they want you to do with one, or two (the more the harder) pieces. So for example, they want you to push the car back and forth, maybe once, or twice, or for two pieces put the peg on a figurine. Once they thought of something (its a secret so don't let them tell you) give them a clicker and get them to shape your behaviour into doing what they want. Then swap so you have control of the clicker. have fun, you'll soon learn how frustrating it can be for the dogs Edited February 11, 2009 by WildatHeart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I love that concept, WildatHeart It's also good for those family members who watch on and at you, not realising what it is you're trying to achieve. Make them the one trying to learn the behaviour you want and they will soon see that those tiny steps of what you're doing with the dog isn't that silly afterall! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Do you know those flicker books - where you have a figure that say starts standing and does a handstand as you flick the pages. Each page is an incremental step like shaping. You know what you want the finished behaviour to be you just need to figure out how to break it down into small steps. But you do need to have a clear idea of what you want the dog to do and the dog won't necessarily achieve your goal in a few sessions. But sometimes they surprise us and actually get it despite our huge potential for error in shaping!!! Oh and the human clicker game is great fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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