Sibes - Independence

[Just Midol]

Lmao, I still want to know why you were asking!

Because in every thread, you seem to ask very very very basic questions.

So basic that some of the most experienced trainers on the board couldn't initially agree Everything in dog training is a theory, and I want to hear the views of people who have different theories. I'm not asking because I have no idea. I have my own theories, but I like hearing other peoples viewpoints.

[WoofnHoof]

The question I think is relevant here is how do animals recognise their families?

Animals don't automatically know who is a family member and who is not. They don't recognise adult siblings if they were separated from them at birth, for example. Birds and mammals only learn who their family is by following a few general rules.

This I find really interesting as I initially thought that animals don't know who are family and who aren't if they weren't raised together but I have 2 horses, full brother and sister. Now my gelding normally reacts to a mare in season and starts carrying on like he thinks he's a stallion! Anyway he has never reacted to his sister in any way at all - so much so that I never know when she is in season because she doesn't react to him either! Yet recently she has been brought into season and she was flirting with geldings at the vets and at the stud (actually she was flirting with pretty much everyone!) and yet she never reacts to her brother at home. So this did make me wonder whether close relatives like full brother/sister share similar smells or something which results in the relatives being less likely to react? I don't really know and of course this is totally anecdotal but it is really interesting

[corvus]

Depends on the species, tkay, but I think that some social animals are able to recognise close siblings by smell. Not dogs, it would seem. Most social systems are set up so that one sex or the other typically leaves home so inbreeding won't occur, but I guess if they don't disperse very far it might still be useful.

[Staranais]

Nice post, Staranais!

The only problem I see is what about dogs that join a family as adults? They often become protective of their new family anyway despite not being raised with them. Hence my thought that the system has been tampered with during selective breeding. One thing I find interesting about some of the older breeds with a strong guarding instinct is that they don't always cope well with being rehomed. It is said that Canaan Dogs often take a long time to become comfortable in a new family and sometimes refuse to eat or drink for days because they miss their old family. I have heard that Akitas are also difficult to rehome sometimes. As opposed to a Lapphund who will happily go with absolutely anyone that gives them a cuddle.

Those dogs have still been socialised with people as youngers though, right? I doubt you'd find nearly the same degree of bonding if the dog hadn't been socialised with people as a pup. If he'd only been socialised with his canine parents, siblings and other close relatives, I suspect he'd find it quite hard to fit into human society, as he wouldn't view humans as "family".

Although I do think you're quite right that dogs are also genetically more "social" than wolves are. It's quite amazing, when you think about it, that many people take their dogs to dog parks all the time with few aggressive incidents. Imagine doing that with an adult wolf!

Tkay - I've heard that SAR dogs often find it difficult to distinguish between the scents of near relative humans, so perhaps you are onto something with your siblings smell similar theory? It's also been shown scientifically that mice prefer to mate with other mice with very disimilar immune systems to their own, (i.e, not close relatives), and apparently they work this out by smell. Could be different for different species, though.

[corvus]

Humans can tell another human with a different immune system by smell as well. I have never smelt a sweaty shirt that I like the smell of, but I would agree that some sweat smells much worse to me than other sweat. Supposedly the more noxious someone's BO smells to you, the more similar their immune system to your own. Sir Robert Winton covered it in one of his documentaries, and his work mate came to our university once and gave a talk about something unrelated, but mentioned that the US department of defence is funding their human pheremone work with the view to "sniff out" criminals.

I have always found it intriguing that my mother's dogs welcome me like a family member even when I only saw them a couple of times during their puppyhood. I figured that my smell must hang around the house, but perhaps I just smell like family.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Humans can tell another human with a different immune system by smell as well. I have never smelt a sweaty shirt that I like the smell of, but I would agree that some sweat smells much worse to me than other sweat. Supposedly the more noxious someone's BO smells to you, the more similar their immune system to your own.

Nothing to do with dogs, but there was a study in the media recently about how the contraceptive pill interferes with this. Apparently if you're on the pill, you're more likely to find men who are genetically similar attractive.

[corvus]

Wow! That is crazy, anita. You learn something everyday.