Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Having you been working the "TOT"? If not, then I'd recommend it. If you have, then start generalising with the areas that you work it in and then add more distractions as he improves with maintaining focus. Stand for exam ..... once done, low level release and walk him away from the 'judge'. Once ok with that, have 'judge' take one step back, one forward, one back, one forward. Diesel to remain in stand. Don't have 'judge' handle/touch him at this point. The number of repetitions will depend on Diesel's performance. Once ok, the 'judge' will do the same, but this time turn and one step away, then turn around and once step back. You can progress with this as you see fit (dependant upon Diesel's behaviour). Make 'judge' boring. No hands on at this point. I now note TSD has mentioned about sending away for the food reward. That is basically "TOT", but after the basics have been taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Yeah we do TOT - he is fantastic with his dinner bowl Probably the best training we do and no one will ever get to see it I am doing some sends to food with him focussing on the food (not asking for attention on me) and if he is doing well I ask for attention on me and then send. I just tried TSD's idea of then getting him to come back for a jackpot - he is rather slow on the return (have had this problem with this exercise) - not sure how to speed it up. I sent him to some dry food and had treats for when he came back. He went at a good clip to get the dry food. I tried both giving him the reward on return from me and also having the reward in another dish behind me and releasing him to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 One of the things that Laura Derrett said was that she preferred the reward to come from her personally, so she doesn't throw food etc. She did use a send to food thing but that was part of sending not a reward. It makes sense to me as I want to be the holder of all rewards in my dog's eyes. When I do send to a jackpot I tend to run with the dogs and give it to them, rather then them getting it themselves. I do TOT with all my new puppies but as I am in close proximity when they get their dinner I still feel like I am the owner of the food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Why are you 'sending' to the food (the food being ultimate reward)? Why not send him to some other target (assuming "send" is what you want to do) and when he reaches it, release him and allow him to have the food you've put elsewhere? I wouldn't have the dog focus on the food. IMO, the dog should know that the bowl won't release him to the food .... I will. So there's no point focusing on the bowl, only me. I'd also do my recalls and then release him to the food. Food can be somewhere else in the training field, but not hidden from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Erny it was for dogs that wouldn't send to other items. Was a focus exercise for agility. Idea is that the dog does focus on the food not the handler. It is for starts etc so that the dog is looking ahead and doesn't run smack into the jumps because they are looking at the handler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 JulesP - that aspect of the 2-food game came to the fore today at agility training - worked a treat!!! I also use it as preparation for directed retrieving down the track - I find that the 2-food game gets the dog working faster......both out to the send away point and then racing back (without any command) to a nice straight front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) Darn. I knew the gremlins were working! Edited February 8, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 I have had to do a lot of work with Kaos as he did have the focus on me that could lead to running into jumps but we've fixed that now. Diesel is much harder to keep motivated, so I am trying to get him keen by using a similar exercise as the send I've taught with Kaos, and then add in attention to me and then heeling and release to the food reward. My thinking is to make running and getting the food (sending to the food) very rewarding, and then add more work for him to do before he gets to do it. But I want him to know the send word and go to the food enthusiastically first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Diesel only has a short attention span though - I can't train for very long in one session as he gets bored. Not sure I can fit that many training sessions in! Might be worth a try though. Hey Kavik - if you get the best work before his dinner then I would do that. You don't have to feed him kibble by kibble - just do a bit of work and give him 1/4 of his dinner.... then session 2, antoher 1/4 of his dinner etc,etc...... This would really help particularly if you get such nice work when he knows dinner is on the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 The problem is when we're heeling, if I reward him, then his attention will wander, so I find it easier to reward at the end of a heeling sequence and then start again rather than reward and continue walking. (so a sequence is not very long - up to maybe 10 steps ) ahhh - a common problem. The issue here is that the dog things that the reward ends the behaviour which we don't want them to think. Now I'm not sure at how I'll go explaining this but it is much easier to *show* someone rather than explain If Diesel is offering you some nice heelwork, rather than stop and reward, reward with a bit of kibble and before his focus wanes again he should have another treat immediately, then another after that.... then stop and play. The key is not to have the reward *end* the behaviour so you need to 'surprise' him with more than he expects for continuing to work. Like I said, hard to explain, but it really does work! If he switches off, say oops - too bad and don't keep working with the 'mediocre' effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I just tried TSD's idea of then getting him to come back for a jackpot - he is rather slow on the return (have had this problem with this exercise) - not sure how to speed it up. I sent him to some dry food and had treats for when he came back. He went at a good clip to get the dry food. I tried both giving him the reward on return from me and also having the reward in another dish behind me and releasing him to that. Gee - I really should read all posts before replying I would try the 2 food game here - as he goes to the jackpot, turns around and comes back to you - I would throw the food past me so he comes rocketing back for that. This works a treat for recalls, presents/fronts and speed coming back to you too One of the things that Laura Derrett said was that she preferred the reward to come from her personally, so she doesn't throw food etc. She did use a send to food thing but that was part of sending not a reward. It makes sense to me as I want to be the holder of all rewards in my dog's eyes. When I do send to a jackpot I tend to run with the dogs and give it to them, rather then them getting it themselves. While this has a place, I still feel that throwing food has a place in training too as it either a) allows the dog to come back in for a nother chance of reinforcement or b) encourages the dog to work away from you should that be what you want. Placement of reward is quite important and sometimes that placement of reward needs to be off us. While Laura doesn't throw food, all through the seminar she did throw a toy to the dog when they completed the right exercise... and to me that is no different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks Leopuppy - will give those a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 OK I tried the 2 food game - calling Diesel and throwing the food when I got his attention after he ate the food that he was sent to - no luck He still decided to sniff for ages first. He is a lazy dog at times. The only thing I have found to speed up his response with this is to correct him if he is slow to respond to the recall command. That does work though. I am now again unsure whether to bother - he is just so lazy! I know he won't respond like the Kelpies but I have problems getting him to move faster than a trot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 OK I tried the 2 food game - calling Diesel and throwing the food when I got his attention after he ate the food that he was sent to - no luck He still decided to sniff for ages first. He is a lazy dog at times. The only thing I have found to speed up his response with this is to correct him if he is slow to respond to the recall command. That does work though. I am now again unsure whether to bother - he is just so lazy! I know he won't respond like the Kelpies but I have problems getting him to move faster than a trot I really think you need to find reinforcer that HE likes. What food were you using the the 2 food game? For about 1 year I was frustrated with my golden as she was so much more slower and 'lazy' than my aussie. So it took me a year to find what she loves (food pouches stuffed with sausages or chicken chunkers), sheepy tug toys, swimming and sniffing. I use them all as a reward. Now she is not as fast as my aussie but at least she is eager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 He doesn't like anything Food is the best I can find, and even that doesn't always work. He will work well if I can keep it lighthearted, but the second I get nervous, he goes flat. I was using cheese. I am going to cook up some sausages for him and try that tomorrow. But the main problem I think is that I WILL be stressed at a trial, and if he falls apart and won't work at all if I am nervous, there really is no point trying to trial him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 He doesn't like anything Food is the best I can find, and even that doesn't always work. He will work well if I can keep it lighthearted, but the second I get nervous, he goes flat.I was using cheese. I am going to cook up some sausages for him and try that tomorrow. But the main problem I think is that I WILL be stressed at a trial, and if he falls apart and won't work at all if I am nervous, there really is no point trying to trial him. I think at this stage he will definitely stress at the trial .... I think your first goal is try to find what he likes and I think it's going to be the hardest part. I would also vary the food rewards so he never knows what is coming. Mine used to love cheese but got over it a little so I had to improvise. At some stage I only used raw meats in training (at the club) gross I know but it worked. Are you using clicker training? I found that my golden gets much more focused once she clicker is out (I think it's conditioned as for 1.5 years she had to ear all her dinners through clicker training). Are you going to bring him to Glendenning this Sat? I know he is not the one competing in agility but I would like to meet him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Are you using a variety of foods in one go Kavik? My Dally gets bored with his rewards REALLY quickly - on Sunday I took a giant bag of toys to agility plus several different food rewards and switched them every few minutes. He was nearly doing back flips for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 He doesn't like anything Food is the best I can find, and even that doesn't always work. He will work well if I can keep it lighthearted, but the second I get nervous, he goes flat.I was using cheese. I am going to cook up some sausages for him and try that tomorrow. But the main problem I think is that I WILL be stressed at a trial, and if he falls apart and won't work at all if I am nervous, there really is no point trying to trial him. I think at this stage he will definitely stress at the trial .... I think your first goal is try to find what he likes and I think it's going to be the hardest part. I would also vary the food rewards so he never knows what is coming. Mine used to love cheese but got over it a little so I had to improvise. At some stage I only used raw meats in training (at the club) gross I know but it worked. Are you using clicker training? I found that my golden gets much more focused once she clicker is out (I think it's conditioned as for 1.5 years she had to ear all her dinners through clicker training). Are you going to bring him to Glendenning this Sat? I know he is not the one competing in agility but I would like to meet him I am using clicker training, and he does like that, and will happily do hand touches etc I think he may do these in a busy environment. Not sure he will give eye contact though. I have gotten him to do eye contact by waiting him out in a busy environment, but it can take a while! I am not going to bring him to Glendenning - only Kaos - not sure I could handle having the two of them there at once - Kaos would probably leave the ring to visit Diesel Plus Diesel is a whinger if I leave him. At the moment I am only using one type of reward at a time. I won't use raw meat - I have this thing about the smell of meat on my hands am going to try sausage though and see how we go. Have tried cabanossi/frankfurst and honestly he works better for cheese (and cheese is not so smelly!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 definitely vary the treats Kavik and make sure they are big enough for him to find easy on the ground and don't crumble Do you say his name and call him before you throw the food?! That helps too. He probably was initially looking for 'dropped' food - so he may be a bit slow off the mark initially Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Yep always make sure they are big enough to find and not crumbly and I call his name first Just never had such a lazy dog before - so used to the go go go of the Kelpies ETA: I even get a better response from Zoe and she is 9 years old! I can send her to a treat on a target and she will run to get it and run straight back to me! Edited February 9, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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