Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 After a few threads on trialling dogs that are not so young, I have decided I am not yet ready to give up on Diesel. I am looking for some ideas though. Our main problem: - Focus/reliability of performance. He works well at home, and on walks and at training when he is used to the venue. He won't work well in more crowded areas. May be a bit better this year as I have my licence so OH (who Diesel is very attached to) won't be there. Sometimes if I am nervous, he won't work at all. Very frustrating as when he wants to he can work very well. I am thinking of going to a few new places/shops and trials and do simple motivational exercises that he likes and see if that helps. Minor problems: - Stand for exam - silly fellow is a wiggle bum and tends to lean on and follow the examiner for a pat - My handling - not sure if I am giving signals or doing little things I may be pinged on. I guess ring experience will tell me this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kallistar Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 [ After a few threads on trialling dogs that are not so young, I have decided I am not yet ready to give up on Diesel. I am looking for some ideas though. Our main problem: - Focus/reliability of performance. He works well at home, and on walks and at training when he is used to the venue. He won't work well in more crowded areas. May be a bit better this year as I have my licence so OH (who Diesel is very attached to) won't be there. Sometimes if I am nervous, he won't work at all. Very frustrating as when he wants to he can work very well. I am thinking of going to a few new places/shops and trials and do simple motivational exercises that he likes and see if that helps. Good Idea, go to some local trials and do simple things, like the watch me... three step heelwork x 2 so in the start just six steps.. and build it up slowly. Minor problems: - Stand for exam - silly fellow is a wiggle bum and tends to lean on and follow the examiner for a pat Can you stand in close and reward him for focusing on you and not the examiner? Does he do this when he is being examined by your side? - My handling - not sure if I am giving signals or doing little things I may be pinged on. Can you get someone to watch you and/or tape you? This may help to tell you what both of you are doing in the ring. I guess ring experience will tell me this? My Cav Trinket is nearly 9 and has major problems as she LOVES her crate/car and has tried to leave the ring to run to it. I train her around the crate in the ring rewarding heavily for staying with me. she now has two passes for her C.D (one a year) and I have learnt to pull the pin in the ring when I see her start to shut down. She is improving with her heel work every time I take her in the ring. Other exercises she does wonderfully when she feels like it..... This is just my experience.. o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hi Kavik Most of your problems seem to be purely about focus (without having seen him), probably with S.F.E as well. Its all about getting back to basics, and search for the motivation needed for the job. Without it, you will continue to have the same problems. IMO you can stick any old dog in a trial and do quite well, but the great ones have that something extra, (drive wise. ) Not all dogs are capable of obtaining a drive level high enough for high level competion. You will need to keep experimenting to find what you need (if its there) Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) You are right dogdude, our problem is about focus. I don't think Diesel has the drive for a great competition dog. If I could never getting him working well I wouldn't bother, but the little bugger gives me glimses of some really nice, motivated work so I am always hopeful We struggle with motivation to get that focus in distracting environments. If nothing else it will give me more experience for next time. Would like to at least get some title on him - something to show for all the hard work we've done - even if it is only CCD Edited February 6, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) You are right dogdude, our problem is about focus. I don't think Diesel has the drive for a great competition dog. If I could never getting him working well I wouldn't bother, but the little bugger gives me glimses of some really nice, motivated work so I am always hopeful We struggle with motivation to get that focus in distracting environments. If nothing else it will give me more experience for next time.Would like to at least get some title on him - something to show for all the hard work we've done - even if it is only CCD I agree with what has been said. You need to find an "A" reinforcer. It's a reinforcer the dog will take at any time and any place. This will help you with consistent focus. If you need some ideas for Diesel's reinforcer: http://www.clickerdogs.com/listofreinforcers.htm Is he toy or food motivated? My golden retriever doesn't tug in all the situations (she loves tugging at home but not always in the park) but she does accept sausage in any situations . So I used these food pouches toys to reward her with the sausage inside but also incorporate some retrieve and tug into it. Her focus improved heaps when I started using the food pouch and not just the food directly. Edited February 6, 2009 by laffi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I haven't yet found something he will take any time any place. If there is too much going on, he won't take food treats (I think he gets a bit stressed as well). He will only play with toys when he is comfotrable in his environment (home, at the park to some degree). I guess I could try different types of food treats, but the several I have tried get pretty much the same response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I haven't yet found something he will take any time any place. If there is too much going on, he won't take food treats (I think he gets a bit stressed as well). He will only play with toys when he is comfotrable in his environment (home, at the park to some degree). I guess I could try different types of food treats, but the several I have tried get pretty much the same response. My golden retriever doesn't play in all the environments either.. but we are working on it. So which foods did you try? Make a list and try to rate how much he likes each of them. I used not to feed my GR for a day if we had agility training the next day so she was quite hungry and therefore liked her treats way more. I don't have to do it anymore but it did work very well. (I did feed her heaps during and after training so it's not like she was starving lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I've tried the feeding less thing - seems to make no difference I'll try some different treats over the next week or so and try to rate his response. I think the fact that he goes on and off cortisone for his skin problem doesn't help either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 One thing that flipped the focus switch with Zig was making him work for every scrap of food that he gets - means a lot of training when he gets around 4 + cups of dry food a day However, it's really worked and he'll often offer me focus and lovely heeling when we are on the way home from a run at the beach in the hope of getting something more than a "good boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I do get REALLY good focus when I feed him his dinner Fantastic eye contact and keen heeling. But he does need a lot of food - that would be a LOT of training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 One thing that flipped the focus switch with Zig was making him work for every scrap of food that he gets - means a lot of training when he gets around 4 + cups of dry food a day However, it's really worked and he'll often offer me focus and lovely heeling when we are on the way home from a run at the beach in the hope of getting something more than a "good boy" Another excellent advice . My golden retriever also has to work for every scrap of her food :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Diesel only has a short attention span though - I can't train for very long in one session as he gets bored. Not sure I can fit that many training sessions in! Might be worth a try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I do get REALLY good focus when I feed him his dinner Fantastic eye contact and keen heeling.But he does need a lot of food - that would be a LOT of training Well I am not sure what you feed (raw or dry) but you can easily use all the dry food in one session... even for a german shepherd It's much harder if you feed raw though :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Diesel only has a short attention span though - I can't train for very long in one session as he gets bored. Not sure I can fit that many training sessions in! Might be worth a try though. What is your rate of reinforcement? How often do you give him food during training? With Laffi to get her attention we started with every couple of secs (for nice heeling for example) and worked from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 I feed dry + chicken frame - so possible. I still use a pretty high rate of reinforcement in more busy environments. The problem is when we're heeling, if I reward him, then his attention will wander, so I find it easier to reward at the end of a heeling sequence and then start again rather than reward and continue walking. (so a sequence is not very long - up to maybe 10 steps ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I feed dry + chicken frame - so possible.I still use a pretty high rate of reinforcement in more busy environments. The problem is when we're heeling, if I reward him, then his attention will wander, so I find it easier to reward at the end of a heeling sequence and then start again rather than reward and continue walking. (so a sequence is not very long - up to maybe 10 steps ) what helped me with the lost of attention after feeding is -C&T for looking at me and feeding more so the dog doesn't have time to get distracted - delivering 10 treats one after another so it lasts for a long time Laffi had this horrible habit to sniff the ground after she got the treat (I think to see if she dropped any ) but feeding her for longer (this is one is at variable schedule and mostly used as a 'jackpot' really helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Agree with laffi - maybe look at your rate of reinforcement and make it much easier for him to succeed. Zig is extremely independent and gets bored very easily so I have been working with him in tiny, tiny increments. We also do short training sessions - for his dinner I break it into 3-4 sessions with a cup for each and plenty of opportunities for jackpots. Like you, Kavik, I saw a few glimmers of what he was really capable of which made me go and thus I have held back from trialling until that work is consistent. Another suggestion that works well with smart, easily bored dog is shaping - when you stop asking the dog to do something and get him to work it out for himself (especially when they're hungry!) it seems to 'stick' a lot better. In the shopping strip under distraction (dogs, people, cars, noise, smells, food) I will often just stand still and ignore Zig (on a shortish leash) until he makes eye contact....then c/t. When we walk home Zig is usually very busy working the length of the lead to mark as often as possible - so it was such a surprise when he started offering me focus and heel work and I always make sure I'm carrying a few biscuits to reinforce the behaviour. He used to offer it only in a half block before home - now it's becoming more frequent and at different points in the walk. ETA: Zig also gets distracted after 'treating' so my trick is to ask immediately for another exercise. I used a suggestion of Ptolomy's - leave the dog in a sit/wait and place some food in a bowl or on the ground a few metres away. Return to your dog. Get the dog to focus on the food (as part of future directed retrieving training) and send the dog to 'get it'. As soon as the dog has eaten the food call him straight back for a nice 'front'. Serious jackpot time!!! Works a treat and keeps the dog focussed even after they have been rewarded. Edited February 6, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) The Spotted Devil I will try that last game too Edited February 6, 2009 by laffi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 That sounds like a good idea I have been working on sending to a food reward as well as preparation for getting the rewards off my person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 That sounds like a good idea I have been working on sending to a food reward as well as preparation for getting the rewards off my person. Yes, I do the same - and now Zig bolts to the food reward, throws it down and is back sitting in front of me with no instruction It's a really fun exercise for building enthusiasm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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