Tire Jump Incident - Youtube Video

[poodlefan]

Maybe the times are just too tight and that encourages handlers to go flat knacker??

Winning is what encourages speed. Same as show jumping - fastest clear dog within time wins.

well it may be one thing but it's not the only thing.

Some teams go fast to win

some go fast to make SCT

some go fast because they think it is more fun

some go fast to aim to be the best they can

some go fast b/c their dog doesn't "do slow"

If you have a naturally motivated, athletic dog & you train positively & consistently, the chances are your dog is going to be fast & you will be as fast as you can to keep up with it. It doesn't have to be about winning.

You don't have to tell me Vickie. However, the "bat out of hell" approach to course handling adopted by some people doesn't assist dogs to complete obstacles safely at times. I've seen some really big asks of dogs in terms of approaches to obstacles and that fuels incidents with equipment. Very very tight turns onto contacts and the tyre are a case in point.

Edited February 6, 2009 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

You don't have to tell me Vickie.

I know, but some may have misinterpreted your post to mean that the only reason to go fast is to win.

However, the "bat out of hell" approach to course handling adopted by some people doesn't assist dogs to complete obstacles safely at times.

Agreed. Does not make them safe and does not make them successful. Edited February 6, 2009 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

You don't have to tell me Vickie.

I know, but some may have misinterpreted your post to mean that the only reason to go fast is to win.

However, the "bat out of hell" approach to course handling adopted by some people doesn't assist dogs to complete obstacles safely at times.

Agreed. Does not make them safe and does not make them successful.

For me, the only reason to go fast is to qually. :wink:

Unfortunately Vickie some of the "bat out of hell" brigade place just often enough to encourage them.

[kelpiechick]

Kelpiechick:

And going back to the tyre, although I agree that the tyre at Nationals should have been pegged, the idea a dog hitting the frame at speed, even if pegged, worries me just as much. Not sure what the answer is though.

Padding? It's what they do to goalposts. And have break away tires if deemed necessary.

Hey, I'm not the one suggesting the tyre should be banned in the first place ! I happen to agree with most of your post so I sincerely hope your whole thing wasn't aimed at me - hopefully just the padding part !

All I'm suggesting is that if someone is going to blame a piece of equipment for an accident, it's not just the fact of it being pegged down or not that could cause an accident - although obviously I would prefer it pegged for safety.

Padding? Yeah, might make a tyre frame safer, although we have padding on the top and sides of our goalposts that my junior soccer team train on and one of my boys still broke his wrist defending a high ball when he connected with the top of the post.

Personally I would probably prefer minimal frame or even none on a tyre design. One of our new breakaway ones has just one narrow bar on one side only and that seems to be one of the safer ones I have seen. But only time will tell.

However when trialling, there is a whole lot of potentially unsafe equipment out there and I believe you owe it to your dog to proof their obstacle performance as much as possible before letting them loose on this. Also to train severe entries without the stress of the competition ring, especially on contacts. (even though I hope I won't ever get a tyre or contact obstacle with an 'unsafe' entry, who knows? At least I think my dogs could handle these by judging their own approach without me babysitting) And most judges are pretty good about safety if you mention concerns to them.

We had a masters agility run a few months back where the judge removed the seesaw as it had no non-slip paint finish on it and it was a wet day. After checking that there wasn't another one available and getting the OK from the VCA rep, out it went as both judge and VCA rep.stated that safety should override obstacle requirements on a course.

For me personally, I would have scratched if it had remained in, (or made up my own course at this point) after being out for so long, I won't ever risk my dog.

But having said that, I have never seen a tyre on a course here that I have deemed unsafe to the point where I won't run.

If I did and it concerned me so much, then again I would 'vote with my feet'.

BTW, Not even sure why the one at Nats wasn't pegged down - this would probably be unusual.

The tyre in question was located on a straight line of obstacles. So maybe an oversight? If so, a terrible one for that poor dog.

[poodlefan]

KC:

BTW, Not even sure why the one at Nats wasn't pegged down - this would probably be unusual.

The tyre in question was located on a straight line of obstacles. So maybe an oversight? If so, a terrible one for that poor dog.

My guess is either inexperienced stewards or an oversight. Coming up with enough stewards for a Nationals is a real challenge so maybe someone didn't know to peg it.

And no, my post about getting rid of the tyre wasn't directed at you but it was one reaction after the Nationals incident. If we got rid of all the "potentially unsafe" stuff, we'd be running around on the flat with no obstacles at all.

[kelpiechick]

I have to agree with the metal drum. My girl Xena misjudged because of the sunlight and where she thought there was a hole wasnt and crashed into the metal drum with speed. How she didnt break anything I dont know. Apparantly she had bounced of and a friend took a video of it and played it slow motion I cant even look at it now it just looked like her whole head and neck went right back and was ready to snap of. I was in tears and the dog was bouncing around like nothing had happened.

You poor thing - I would hate to have seen that. Glad your dog was OK

I made my OH pull down the fence my dog broke his leg on and replace it with something else, as I couldn't bear to look at it afterwards either.

[kelpiechick]

And no, my post about getting rid of the tyre wasn't directed at you but it was one reaction after the Nationals incident. If we got rid of all the "potentially unsafe" stuff, we'd be running around on the flat with no obstacles at all.

So true !

Main reason why I only run one particular organisation in Vic. and not another.

[poodlefan]

And no, my post about getting rid of the tyre wasn't directed at you but it was one reaction after the Nationals incident. If we got rid of all the "potentially unsafe" stuff, we'd be running around on the flat with no obstacles at all.

So true !

Main reason why I only run one particular organisation in Vic. and not another.

I'd probably still get course faults.

[xena98]

I have to agree with the metal drum. My girl Xena misjudged because of the sunlight and where she thought there was a hole wasnt and crashed into the metal drum with speed. How she didnt break anything I dont know. Apparantly she had bounced of and a friend took a video of it and played it slow motion I cant even look at it now it just looked like her whole head and neck went right back and was ready to snap of. I was in tears and the dog was bouncing around like nothing had happened.

You poor thing - I would hate to have seen that. Glad your dog was OK

I made my OH pull down the fence my dog broke his leg on and replace it with something else, as I couldn't bear to look at it afterwards either.

I think all of Australia saw it. Happened in the finals in Canberra. I had wanted to pull out in my last final and I got told of from everyone as she was fine it was just me and we third in the last run so it didnt obviously affected her but by golly it did to me

[Vickie]

I'd probably still get course faults.

.

I don't think many people wnat to get rid of the tyre completely...but lots want to take advantage of a design that appears safer. As far as I see it, bureaucracy, logistics & cost are what stands in the way of this happening.

Logistics & cost I think we can overcome with a bit of effort...Bureaucracy is another thing alltogether

[poodlefan]

I'd probably still get course faults.

.

I don't think many people wnat to get rid of the tyre completely...but lots want to take advantage of a design that appears safer. As far as I see it, bureaucracy, logistics & cost are what stands in the way of this happening.

Logistics & cost I think we can overcome with a bit of effort...Bureaucracy is another thing alltogether

I don't think it would be all that difficult to make the thing fall apart on impact.

Just let me build them. Of course mine might just fall apart anyway.

[kelpiechick]

I'd probably still get course faults.

Hey, the obstacles are the 'easy' part.

Nearly all my course faults are caused by what I do on the flat linking them up

[poodlefan]

I'd probably still get course faults.

Hey, the obstacles are the 'easy' part.

Nearly all my course faults are caused by what I do on the flat linking them up

You mean like stopping dead and thinking "oh shite, where was I going".. and having your dog get called for a refusal cos he stopped to wonder too?

Or my personal favourite.. busting your gut to get to a particular place on the course and then stopping and going "oh shite, I didnt' think I'd make it here.. now what?"

Edited February 6, 2009 by poodlefan

[J...]

I can pretty much guarantee that if there was a DQ provision for unsafe handling in ANKC agility, you'd see even fewer of these kinds of incidents than you do now.

There is the ability to DQ in ANKC for unsafe handling, it just doesn't get used very often. Crops up more often in the games I've noticed.

[kyliegirl]

wow those are some nasty falls

I like this idea though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2D4hpIxlPA

it looks MUCH safer

[Diva]

Logistics & cost I think we can overcome with a bit of effort...Bureaucracy is another thing alltogether

Why can't you influence the bureaucracy? Isn't it self-regulated - eg don't the particpants elect the decison makers?

It's a genuine question, I don't do agility, but sometimes I think people use 'bureaucracy' as a catch all for plain old inertia.

[OSoSwift]

Those vids made me cry!!!!!

Oh my god, I am sure if it was me I would have the dog out of the ring and belting to the vets, horrendous to see, however I am glad I did. That happening had never entered my mind!!!!!!

Jules, I am also from a horse background and I spend lots of time on the 'quality of the jump'. I have been told that no you don't want a collected round jump, you want them to jump flat they go faster. My way of thinking is when they speed up, they will naturally flatten out so I certainly don't want to teach that from the beginning it will mean rails down. Also I want my dogs weight over it's hocks for a good springy take off, a nice high, round shape - less likely to hit things. I also do lots of grids moving the distance between very low jumps to try and teach the dog to look for it's take off point, not leap and hope like hell it makes it. I ALWAYS think horse when training my dog, I am sure some think me strange!!!!

[mirawee]

This thread has really confused me.

After the Nationals last year a circular was sent out saying that after a meeting of ANKC agility reps after the incident at the Nationals the tyre IS BANNED from ANKC competition until further investigations are carried out. It certainly hasn't been used in WA since then. I have not ever seen anything saying that the tyre has been reinstated so why are other states using them again? Have they received some information the WA hasn't?

In regards to the event at the Nationals I wasn't there but know the dog in question. He is a super fast dog and from what I have been told by his owner the damage was done when the unpegged tyre landed on his back The damage is permanent but he is getting around ok now.

I have never seen an accident with a tyre in WA - however have seen accidents with dog walks, bendy tunnels (the wrong type of sand bag was used), collapsible tunnels and even dogs just turning incorrectly after jumps But nothing in life is without risk...

[BittyMooPeeb]

This thread has really confused me.

After the Nationals last year a circular was sent out saying that after a meeting of ANKC agility reps after the incident at the Nationals the tyre IS BANNED from ANKC competition until further investigations are carried out. It certainly hasn't been used in WA since then. I have not ever seen anything saying that the tyre has been reinstated so why are other states using them again? Have they received some information the WA hasn't?

In regards to the event at the Nationals I wasn't there but know the dog in question. He is a super fast dog and from what I have been told by his owner the damage was done when the unpegged tyre landed on his back The damage is permanent but he is getting around ok now.

I have never seen an accident with a tyre in WA - however have seen accidents with dog walks, bendy tunnels (the wrong type of sand bag was used), collapsible tunnels and even dogs just turning incorrectly after jumps But nothing in life is without risk...

I've been wondering this too. The tyre disappeared here for a short time, but was reintroduced pretty quickly. Maybe it is in the definition of an "ANKC event"? I would like to see breakaway tyres in use.

I'd also like to see a new (?) type of spread be removed. I haven't seen them at other clubs, but our club has one. It has metal cups that stick out on the inside of the jumps at each height level. I can see a dog taking this jump at an angle and getting sliced open by one of the metal cups :rolleyes: . I've mentioned it, and got a look like I was a bit of a nutter - which may well be the case. I'd like to hear what other people think about the jump, and I'd be happy to be reassured that it is safe.

ETA : found a pic, and added the path of the dog that worries me.

Edited February 10, 2009 by BittyMooPeeb

[Vickie]

After the Nationals last year a circular was sent out saying that after a meeting of ANKC agility reps after the incident at the Nationals the tyre IS BANNED from ANKC competition until further investigations are carried out. It certainly hasn't been used in WA since then. I have not ever seen anything saying that the tyre has been reinstated so why are other states using them again? Have they received some information the WA hasn't?

The tyre was never officially banned. The circular was a suggestion. Apparently NSW never received anything official about the tyre and I have not run a course since the Nationals that did not include the tyre.