Tire Jump Incident - Youtube Video

[ILK]

Just so I understand this clearly. What is the best tyre to be used?

[kelpiechick]

I am starting agility in April......The accidents on that link scare me. Now I'm going to fell sick every time there is a tyre.

I'm glad I read this thread and I am aware of it though.

Any piece of agilty equipment has the potential to cause a dog harm - even though it might be unlikely, the risk is still there and I think we all know that. But in most cases the risks are minimal so I wouldn't be stressed every time I saw a tyre. And it's good to be aware of the importance of trying to perform every piece of equipment safely. But if you go out there thinking that the tyre is the bogeyman before you even start that won't be a very positive association for your dog. As the owner of a dog that was injured in an accident (not with the tyre) and missed a whole year of agility trialling, take if from me that it's not healthy go out and run with the idea in the back of your mind that something's going to happen to your dog - I did that for about a year after returning to trialling and ended up shutting my dog down before I realised what my fear was doing to him.

IMO there are a couple of other pieces of equipment that pose way more danger to dogs than the tyre does.

We use displaceable tyres at the club where I train and there have been quite a few trials in Victoria where they have been used too. Even before that I have never witnessed a dog injuring itself performing the tyre at club - but this is not done on lead as a previous poster mentioned- I agree that could be a bit of a recipe for disaster.

For those who attended the GD seminar, I totally agree with his take on the tyre and dogs that hit it - he sets up some amazing proofing exercises with the tyre to try to ensure that this never happens to his dogs.

I guess no matter how careful you are there are always exceptions though. But there are ways to minimise the risk. And if you are training at a club (Or trialling) and have some concerns about the safety of any of the equipment, then make sure you speak up.

[Vickie]

IMO there are a couple of other pieces of equipment that pose way more danger to dogs than the tyre does.

I curious to know what they are?

[kelpiechick]

IMO there are a couple of other pieces of equipment that pose way more danger to dogs than the tyre does.

I curious to know what they are?

Cloth tunnel for one!

Hideous piece of equipment, especially when you get the old heavyweight canvas ones , plus I have also seen a lightweight calico one with no grip for the dogs that twisted when every dog went in, even though it was supposedly staked, and finally had to be torn to get a small dog out of it I believe that one carries the potential for both physical and 'psychological' injuries for our dogs.

Have also seen a dog slide in mud and hit the barrel, which wasn't pretty.

At least there seem to be options for making a tyre relatively safer (whether or not they are effective is a whole different story that I'm not going to debate without more evidence) but haven't heard too many options for making a chute safer, not disussed anyway. First piece of equipment that I would like banned.

The other has to do with a particular 2 jump arrangement common at Vic. trials, don't think it would be an issue for you in NSW though as I believe you use winged jumps - as these are highly visible, it would take the problem (which is to do with dog's vision of the particular set up) out of the equation.

[poodlefan]

I am starting agility in April......The accidents on that link scare me. Now I'm going to fell sick every time there is a tyre.

I'm glad I read this thread and I am aware of it though.

Correct training of your dog and correct set up of equipment mitigate risks but the sport is NOT without them. Its a reminder to handlers though to check equipment when they walk courses at other clubs and to bring to the judges attention any safety risks. I've seen this done and action taken immmediately to address handler concerns.

ILK, how many dogs do you know who've taken themselves out on the backyard clothes line.

I've been competing in agility for 8? or so years now and I've never seen a dog seriously hurt (have heard of one serious injury to dog running in very wet conditions but that is up to handlers discretion and I don't).

Handlers on the other hand.. seen a few splats involving injury, mostly due to falling.

[Guest PixieOfWrath]

What happened at the Nationals...?

[ILK]

I am starting agility in April......The accidents on that link scare me. Now I'm going to fell sick every time there is a tyre.

I'm glad I read this thread and I am aware of it though.

Correct training of your dog and correct set up of equipment mitigate risks but the sport is NOT without them. Its a reminder to handlers though to check equipment when they walk courses at other clubs and to bring to the judges attention any safety risks. I've seen this done and action taken immmediately to address handler concerns.

ILK, how many dogs do you know who've taken themselves out on the backyard clothes line.

I've been competing in agility for 8? or so years now and I've never seen a dog seriously hurt (have heard of one serious injury to dog running in very wet conditions but that is up to handlers discretion and I don't).

Handlers on the other hand.. seen a few splats involving injury, mostly due to falling.

Thanks pf, good to know.

[poodlefan]

What happened at the Nationals...?

I didnt' attend (there are DOLers who did) but was told a dog hit an unpegged tyre and suffered a back injury.

[Vickie]

Cloth tunnel for one!

Hideous piece of equipment, especially when you get the old heavyweight canvas ones , plus I have also seen a lightweight calico one with no grip for the dogs that twisted when every dog went in, even though it was supposedly staked, and finally had to be torn to get a small dog out of it I believe that one carries the potential for both physical and 'psychological' injuries for our dogs.

Have also seen a dog slide in mud and hit the barrel, which wasn't pretty.

At least there seem to be options for making a tyre relatively safer (whether or not they are effective is a whole different story that I'm not going to debate without more evidence) but haven't heard too many options for making a chute safer, not disussed anyway. First piece of equipment that I would like banned.

The other has to do with a particular 2 jump arrangement common at Vic. trials, don't think it would be an issue for you in NSW though as I believe you use winged jumps - as these are highly visible, it would take the problem (which is to do with dog's vision of the particular set up) out of the equation.

Thanks KC. I agree about the cloth tunnels, although I have never seen anything really bad happen in them, I can see the potential. We are lucky in NSW that we don't seem to have many of the canvas ones left, most are lightweight.

and yes I saw those weird spreads at the Nationals & can certainly see how they could be dangerous with all those things poking out

you mean these?

Edited February 6, 2009 by Vickie

[Cosmolo]

Some of the videos are sickening. Not that i compete now but i have never seen a dog injured at training so while we must be careful and train appropriately- it shouldn't make everyone too fearful.

Kelpie chick-are you able to elaborate on what was taught at the GB seminar with regards to the tyre?

[kelpiechick]

and yes I saw those weird spreads at the Nationals & can certainly see how they could be dangerous with all those things poking out

you mean these?

Oooh, that is a weird looking spread and I had forgotten about those, I believe that one belongs to the RAS and so only gets out once a year at the Royal, (which I don't run) so don't see it very often. Yeah, you're right, that could probably cause some damage too.

What I was referring to is the side by side touching jumps (that some judges in Vic. just love - there were some in Masters Jumping at the Nationals) As most of the jumps we use here are unpainted metal uprights, which in the sunlight is just about invisible, I believe that our dogs only see the jump bars and not the uprights when the jumps are arranged in this way.

There was a good article in Clean Run last year some time about the 'hierarchy' of what dogs see which would support this. If this is true, (again my belief only, have no evidence) then I think it is just a matter of time before a dog hits the joining uprights with its front leg/s as it takes the bar, especially when coming straight on at speed.

Would hate to see the result of this as it pretty closely simulates what happened to my dog when he broke his leg. (although not on agility equipment)

And going back to the tyre, although I agree that the tyre at Nationals should have been pegged, the idea a dog hitting the frame at speed, even if pegged, worries me just as much. Not sure what the answer is though.

Another interesting point GD raised when here on the subject of tyre crashes, is that a lot of countries have all but effectively 'banned' them (not the US I believe, but GB and some of the European countries) but when they run Worlds, suddenly the tyre is there and many dogs have not trained on them for a year - apparently they get brought back out and trained in a mad rush a few weeks before Worlds.

He believes that this also contributes to the number of crashes that occur.

I don't really have a strong opinion either way about whether tyres should be banned or not, but I just hope whatever happens we get some consistency between the states and if they are banned then they stay out in all states for fairness sake - not here in some, out in others.

[JulesP]

I think that they did look at banning the tire after the national. Ours got pulled out of training for a couple of weeks. Actually was it our tire? I think alot of our equipment got used for that comp.

[poodlefan]

Kelpiechick:

And going back to the tyre, although I agree that the tyre at Nationals should have been pegged, the idea a dog hitting the frame at speed, even if pegged, worries me just as much. Not sure what the answer is though.

Padding? It's what they do to goalposts. And have break away tires if deemed necessary.

A dog can just as easily fall off the top A-Frame or the dog walk or hit a pegged spread upright. At some point you've got to put some responsiblity back on handlers to both handle their dogs safely (something ADAA does I believe) and to teach the dog to perform the equipment safely. Most of the tire incidents I've seen, the dog didn't judge the obstacle or was handled onto it too closely to make a safe approach. Maybe some dogs need more training on it than just treating it like a different sort of jump?

I can pretty much guarantee that if there was a DQ provision for unsafe handling in ANKC agility, you'd see even fewer of these kinds of incidents than you do now. Some dogs have inherently risky jump styles.. they just leap and hope. You only have to listen to the gasps from the spectators to know when its seat of the pants handling in the ring. That works fine with bar knocking but the tyre is a diferent challenge.

You can't make the sport risk free IMO and retain its challenges. It's fast, it involves obstacles and dogs are being manoevred. If the issue is too much speed for the oncoming obstacle or too tight/angled an approach, then its either a poorly designed course or a handling/training issue IMO. Course safety issues should be addressed on the spot at trials and in my experience, they are.

We have dogs at my club that will win when a course is like a race track (all fast and flowing) but can't do tight turns. Personally I think all courses need a little of both. It shouldn't be that a dog has to turn inside out to make the next obstacle (as some larger striding faster dogs are almost forced to do on some courses) but it also shouldn't be just about speed across the ground either.

As a smaller dog handler (yes, you all knew this was coming :wink:) a course where the obstacles are all 8metres apart on a series of large curves is not what I call an even playing field. I've seen ones like that and scratched my dog. My challenge as a smaller dog handler is always to get my dog to take the most efficient line on the course (as opposed to fastest time across the ground) and the longer that line is, the less chance I have to qualify within time.

Off soapbox now!

Edited February 6, 2009 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

I understand what you are saying PF...but I have to wonder...if the rest of the world has decided that they need to do something about the tyre to make it safer...why is it that we, in Australia, are not watching & thinking about following suit?

At the end end the day, I know that there are things you can & should do to handle a course safely, but the fact remains that

a.) this is an obstacle that a large percentage of people are worried about because of actual events that have occurred and

b.) when you are running a dog that is travelling over 6 metres per second the increased risk of serious injury should a misjudgement occur IS terrifying.

An interesting aricle about the displaceable tyre:

http://www.poweragility.dk/npahjul/eindexnpahjul.html

NZKC has changed it's rules in 2009 to maximise the safety of the tyre:

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:hyXdb...;cd=8&gl=au

Another lot of good reading:

http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/equipm...ingTheTire.html

Edited February 6, 2009 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

I understand what you are saying PF...but I have to wonder...if the rest of the world has decided that they need to do something about the tyre to make it safer...why is it that we, in Australia, are not watching & thinking about following suit?

At the end end the day, I know that there are things you can & should do to handle a course safely, but the fact remains that

a.) this is an obstacle that a large percentage of people are worried about because of actual events that have occurred and

b.) when you are running a dog that is travelling over 6 metres per second the increased risk of serious injury should a misjudgement occur IS terrifying.

I'm happy for something to be done about the tyre Vickie, but I don't think that "something" should be getting rid of it. If improvements in design can make it safer, so much the better. There have been splats off see saws, dog walks and A-Frames but I don't think we should get rid of those either.

I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bath water because of a few incidents. And as far as I'm aware, they are very few.

Edited February 6, 2009 by poodlefan

[JulesP]

Maybe I am doing it totally wrong as I am novice but when I am doing my training courses I am looking for the stride etc which has come from my show jumping (low level). I am thinking about collecting a bit before things like the tires. Kind of thinking about the dog bouncing over jumps rather than flattening out. But I am really, really slow! lol. Maybe the times are just too tight and that encourages handlers to go flat knacker??

[poodlefan]

Maybe I am doing it totally wrong as I am novice but when I am doing my training courses I am looking for the stride etc which has come from my show jumping (low level). I am thinking about collecting a bit before things like the tires. Kind of thinking about the dog bouncing over jumps rather than flattening out. But I am really, really slow! lol. Maybe the times are just too tight and that encourages handlers to go flat knacker??

Winning is what encourages speed. Same as show jumping - fastest clear dog within time wins.

I think it would be safe to say that most show jumpers spend a lot more time teaching their horses how to jump than many agility handlers. Not all dogs have a good natural jump style and there's plenty of training material around on how to teach it but I'm not sure how many bother.

But yes, the idea of checking your dog's speed and focus to get a good approach to an obstacle isn't all that common in agility IMO.

I find times tight at the highest level but I'm given the same course time with my 300 dog as any other size dog does. I don't have a problem with that but it does mean that the type of course I confront will pretty much determine my chances at making time before I step into the ring. The more open and flowing the course, the less chance I've got.

[JulesP]

All very interesting. Lots to ponder with agility! Think it is why it is filling the dressage gap (did dressage more than jumping) more than obedience was.

[xena98]

IMO there are a couple of other pieces of equipment that pose way more danger to dogs than the tyre does.

I curious to know what they are?

Cloth tunnel for one!

Hideous piece of equipment, especially when you get the old heavyweight canvas ones , plus I have also seen a lightweight calico one with no grip for the dogs that twisted when every dog went in, even though it was supposedly staked, and finally had to be torn to get a small dog out of it I believe that one carries the potential for both physical and 'psychological' injuries for our dogs.

Have also seen a dog slide in mud and hit the barrel, which wasn't pretty.

At least there seem to be options for making a tyre relatively safer (whether or not they are effective is a whole different story that I'm not going to debate without more evidence) but haven't heard too many options for making a chute safer, not disussed anyway. First piece of equipment that I would like banned.

The other has to do with a particular 2 jump arrangement common at Vic. trials, don't think it would be an issue for you in NSW though as I believe you use winged jumps - as these are highly visible, it would take the problem (which is to do with dog's vision of the particular set up) out of the equation.

I have to agree with the metal drum. My girl Xena misjudged because of the sunlight and where she thought there was a hole wasnt and crashed into the metal drum with speed. How she didnt break anything I dont know. Apparantly she had bounced of and a friend took a video of it and played it slow motion I cant even look at it now it just looked like her whole head and neck went right back and was ready to snap of. I was in tears and the dog was bouncing around like nothing had happened. Another time we had the wooden frame with the tyre in it I sent her through the tunnel (me being the lazy runner)send her to the tyre and cut across. Well Xena wasnt impressed that I was in front (my position apparantly is to be behind at all cost LOL) so she put my speed on and realized that she wouldnt make it so went to stop well one half did but the other half didnt and she just smacked straight into near her neck how she didnt get killed I dont know. So I am always careful with tyres and tunnels

[Vickie]

Maybe the times are just too tight and that encourages handlers to go flat knacker??

Winning is what encourages speed. Same as show jumping - fastest clear dog within time wins.

well it may be one thing but it's not the only thing.

Some teams go fast to win

some go fast to make SCT

some go fast because they think it is more fun

some go fast to aim to be the best they can

some go fast b/c their dog doesn't "do slow"

If you have a naturally motivated, athletic dog & you train positively & consistently, the chances are your dog is going to be fast & you will be as fast as you can to keep up with it. It doesn't have to be about winning.

We came 2nd in a competitive class last weekend by a fraction of a second. Am I beating myself up about it? a bit. But my issue is about the mistake I made on course, not about the place. I am always aiming for that perfect run, and that one was close, but I can still improve on it. I don't care if I improve & come 10th...so long as I improve.

ETA : Hi Xena98 . Nice to "see" you here

Edited February 6, 2009 by Vickie