Jed Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Diva Sometimes that's all true. From personal experience as a buyer of pups from registered breeders, I assure you it is not at all certain Diva This is certainly true. Love your dogs, but pls don't be tempted again by those who breed dogs 'to death'. Sometimes it's literally true. Now, this is very confusing. On one hand, you are warning people not to go to a puppy farm or back yard breeder, but you are also saying don't go to a registered breeder, because they are paying for a companion who may not have been fed, vaccinated, wormed and cared for, vet checked and given a clean bill of health. They may not get a puppy whose parents have been screened for genetic disease and probably hasn't been carefully bred to produce the healthiest of pups. You are paying not for the kennels 'name' or reputation but for life-long support from a breeder who wants the best possible homes for each and every puppy they breed which there is a fair possibility they wont get What exactly are you advising prospective puppy buyers to do? Where should they go? None of the choices seem acceptable to you. Maybe they should just go to the pet shop, they could get one from a shonky registered breeder there, or from a horrible puppy farm, or be tempted by one from a back yard breeder. And the buyer wont know, so they can simply take their chances, if each choice is as bad as the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab lady Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I'm with you Jed, not sure what the message is here either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I interpreted Divas comments to mean that one still has to do quite a bit of research, even with a registered breeder and not to assume anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 DivaSometimes that's all true. From personal experience as a buyer of pups from registered breeders, I assure you it is not at all certain Diva This is certainly true. Love your dogs, but pls don't be tempted again by those who breed dogs 'to death'. Sometimes it's literally true. Now, this is very confusing. On one hand, you are warning people not to go to a puppy farm or back yard breeder, but you are also saying don't go to a registered breeder, because they are paying for a companion who may not have been fed, vaccinated, wormed and cared for, vet checked and given a clean bill of health. They may not get a puppy whose parents have been screened for genetic disease and probably hasn't been carefully bred to produce the healthiest of pups. You are paying not for the kennels 'name' or reputation but for life-long support from a breeder who wants the best possible homes for each and every puppy they breed which there is a fair possibility they wont get What exactly are you advising prospective puppy buyers to do? Where should they go? None of the choices seem acceptable to you. Maybe they should just go to the pet shop, they could get one from a shonky registered breeder there, or from a horrible puppy farm, or be tempted by one from a back yard breeder. And the buyer wont know, so they can simply take their chances, if each choice is as bad as the other. Wrong Jed, read my post properly. I did not say don't go to a registered breeder. I said that buyers cannot be assured that all registered breeders do what SecretKei said, you cannot assume they will just because they are registered. Toofarnorth understood- assume nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Maybe you should re-read your post, Diva not castigate me for being unable to read. 33.3% of your audience "interpreted" your comments, 66.6% thought you were telling people not to go to a registered breeder. So I'm not the only one confused about your message. Isn't this what you said? From personal experience as a buyer of pups from registered breeders, I assure you it is not at all certain You are usually telling people not to go to registered breeders, or they will get ripped off, but it's confusing when you tell them not to go to a puppy farm or a byb either. I wouldn't go somewhere wher "it isn't certain". You can't expect people to do what you don't recommend. Edited March 3, 2009 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I think Diva is simply trying to say that just because a breeder is registered, it doesn't mean they are doing the right thing by the dogs and that one needs to do their research. There are registered breeders out there who I was class as puppy farmers. With regards to Rish's dogs coming from a BYB - lets give her a break. She's here now which means like so many of us, she can learn more about the issue and hopefully help to eductate others as well. Plenty of people here on DOL have dogs who came from BYB's because they didn't know better at the time. Maybe instead of giving her grief about where her dogs came from, we could offer advice for the future, and even some assistance with the dogs skin condition. Rish - there are quite a few threads in the health section on dogs with skin conditions. The below topic is fantastic and has lots of great information on dealing with problem skin. Maybe some of them could help you - just run them past your vet first http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...4&hl=zayder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Maybe you should re-read your post, Diva not castigate me for being unable to read. 33.3% of your audience "interpreted" your comments, 66.6% thought you were telling people not to go to a registered breeder. So I'm not the only one confused about your message.Isn't this what you said? From personal experience as a buyer of pups from registered breeders, I assure you it is not at all certain You are usually telling people not to go to registered breeders, or they will get ripped off, but it's confusing when you tell them not to go to a puppy farm or a byb either. I wouldn't go somewhere wher "it isn't certain". You can't expect people to do what you don't recommend. What does 'sometimes that's all true' in my post mean to you Jed? To me it means that some breeeders do all those good things. What does 'not at all certain' mean to you Jed? To me it means you can't make a blanket statement that all registered breeders do those things, because that isn't correct. I have NEVER told people not to go to registered breeders. But I don't recommend them so freely as I used to either. I mostly don't recommend anyone now unless I know them personally - except possibly an MDBA breeder because that framework has good potential. Being registered is no guarantee of anything except the ability to register dogs with the kennel control - because the regulatory framework is inadequate and the incentive structures poorly designed. You seem to want to characterise me as anti- registered breeder, but I'm not. Stormie has summed up what I was saying very well. Edited to be clearer, and to remove a joke that was in questionable taste. Edited March 4, 2009 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 stormie While I think the odds are much better with registered breeders, I agree with Diva and understood her to be saying there were no guarantees. We don't help registered breeders if we don't give people the tools to find a good one and avoid the bad. I'm sure we all know at least one person who has a prefix who we would not send a pet buyer to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Whatever you say Diva, it was all too long and boring for me to read, so I didn't bother, so I'll just agree. I'm sure you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm sure you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Whatever you say Diva, it was all too long and boring for me to read, so I didn't bother, so I'll just agree. I'm sure you're right. Onya Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 IMO you will have a hard time finding a registered breeder who does the wrong thing. However go looking for a puppy farmer or a backyard breeder and you can GUARANTEE that those dogs wont be bred with proper consideration for their health and wellbeing. Registered breeders put the time and research into their breeding programs. They breed 'occasionally' and only to improve the breed. The only purpose of breeding for a BYB/Puppy farmer is to make money. Okay, I agree that there may be a few dodgy ones out there and just because they have a registered prefix it's no guarantee, but really- all it takes is a few phone calls and a visit to work this out and they are few and far between. To me there is no comparison. If you are looking for a dog you go to a registered breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 IMO you will have a hard time finding a registered breeder who does the wrong thing. Registered breeders put the time and research into their breeding programs. They breed 'occasionally' and only to improve the breed. How many registered breeders do you know personally? And I mean, how much knowledge do you have of their breeding programs and ethics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 IMO you will have a hard time finding a registered breeder who does the wrong thing. Registered breeders put the time and research into their breeding programs. They breed 'occasionally' and only to improve the breed. How many registered breeders do you know personally? And I mean, how much knowledge do you have of their breeding programs and ethics? Honestly, I only know a few personally, I dont know all there is to know, and I dont breed dogs so I'm definetly no expert on breeding programs. I am only going by my own experiences and oppinion. But i've never come accross a registered breeder who would put money from the sale of a litter above the health and well-being of their dogs or breed just for the hell of it. You cant say the same for BYB's and definetly not for puppy farmers. I find it so upsetting when I hear someone say that they got a 'bargain' pup from a BYB, or that by going through a registered breeder that you are getting ripped off. There is so much more to consider when adding a dog to your family than the 'price' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanya Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Well, I know of someone that has bought a pup from a pet shop. Not the same so to speak but simular, BYB sell to pet shops. The persone in question, saw this pup, and wanted it. And even after me trying to talk them out of it, also stating that they are the same bloody price as my pedigree pups will be, they still went and bought it. Now, the said pup was only 5 weeks old, already had its first lot of injections, and the bloody price tag that went with it was bloody unbelievable. And also he is meant to be a pom/chu which i very much doubt that cause he is now 5 months old roughly and has legs that go on forever. I have just had my first litter, they are now 7 weeks. we started off with first puppy stuck, so emergancy c-section, and we ended up loosing that pup. Broke my heart. Then we had to get exrays on one of the pups, ended up a diagnosing a swimmer and is fine now, all the vaccinations, microchipping, food, toys, training and lack of sleep and also i am keeping 2, she had 4. The boys will be going to their new homes with toys, puppy info pack, photos, collar and lead set, a bed and also lots of socialising and bit of training. I have not put a high price on my pups to cover pups,(i know some people do) all i wanted and have achieved is for them to be happy, healthy and go to the best of homes. Breeding should be to better the breed standard, only do it when you want to extend your own family, and not for money as if you are a responsible breeder, you would know that that is virtually impossible.... And this should apply to everyone,registered or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 IMO you will have a hard time finding a registered breeder who does the wrong thing. No group of people is perfect. The canine controls do not have the regulatory teeth or financial resources to take on everyone. Most people who are active in dog world can (but won't, for obvious reasons) name people who have been left alone. Either because the canine controls haven't wanted to risk a protracted legal battle or have had their hands tied by federal legislation on restraint of trade. People holding prefixes have been convicted of animal cruelty as well. Not in anywhere near the same numbers as people not holding them but it's not unheard of, and those people are usually the ones who had puppies available for the casual pet shopper. Canine controls do deal with the easy to moderately difficult matters, and do suspend and fine. The current system is far better than no system at all, and I would also recommend going to a registered breeder and counsel against a BYBer or PFer. It's important that people understand that a prefix is not a guarantee tho', in the same way that a law degree or a real estate agent's license is not a guarantee that someone will do the right thing. I'd only want someone with a recognised law degree to represent me in court, but if I'm looking for a lawyer, that degree is a base requirement from which I'll progress to further selection based on performance and recommendations. The licence to practice is not all I need to know. People should do the same kind of research before selecting a breeder that they would before selecting any other person who can have a big impact on their quality of life (dentist, accountant, doc etc). Here's an article that can be given to people, sure it's not perfect, but it's a start: http://www.dogsact.org.au/Activities/Finding_responsible.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) IMO you will have a hard time finding a registered breeder who does the wrong thing. No group of people is perfect. I'm truly not anti-registered breeder. I know a lot of registered breeders and have been around the show/obedience scene on and off for over 30 years. I don't recommend byb's or pet shops. Nor registered breeders I don't know personally. Truly dodgy registered breeders are few, although as others have pointed out, they do exist. More common than dodgy registered breeders are those whose priorities are show wins only - and they can often neglect the things that don't affect show wins chasing their next grand champion. It is not uncommon for that to happen. Other breeders can't see beyond their own kennel, and deny there could be any health or temperament issue in their dogs, just because they are their dogs. Or ignore codes of ethics because only the 'newbies' need those. I don't blame individual breeders for those things (except the truly dishonest), because that is the way the system works and what it rewards. I don't want a big barny about it either, because I know I'm not going to convince registered breeders of it - too much vested interest. It's just that the overselling of the ethics is kind of hard to stomach sometimes. Sorry if it's boring and complicated Real issues often are. Edited March 5, 2009 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I know of one registered "breeder" (not as a friend but I have spoken with her and know of what she does) and there is absolutely no way I would recommend her to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 To me there is no comparison. If you are looking for a dog you go to a registered breeder. I think the trick is to find a registered breeder via word of mouth. Key word being REPUTABLE. I've had some shocking dealings with reg'd breeders, but just like any 'industry' you have to sort out the good from the bad. Then when you get good, they far outweigh the bad as they offer so much more than even a 'good BYB'er' (there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 To me there is no comparison. If you are looking for a dog you go to a registered breeder. I think the trick is to find a registered breeder via word of mouth. Key word being REPUTABLE. I've had some shocking dealings with reg'd breeders, but just like any 'industry' you have to sort out the good from the bad. Then when you get good, they far outweigh the bad as they offer so much more than even a 'good BYB'er' (there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one ). the trouble i have is the blanket "if they are a registered breeder they are good" mentality. it is very difficult for dog owners to find good breeders. how are they to get the "word of mouth" info? how do we know who is good and who isn't? when you add to the mix that they may be new dog owners as well and have no clue as to what to ask then it becomes more difficult. i don't have the answers but i would support anything that made it easier to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now