Sibes Pulling Sleds

[huski]

I guess so, your Mishka and Shell's Zero are both quite stocky Sibes, aren't they!

Maybe they just put the cutest cuddliest looking Sibes in the movies rather than ones that actually looked like sled dogs

Yep Micha and Zero are both from "bigger" lines. Micha's grandfather was a Grand Champion and was a very 'solid' looking boy! The sibes in the movies probably look quite solid looking because they have their big winter coats too! Although, TBH, I thought the Sibes in Sled Dogs and 8 Below looked like normal Sibes

There are a lot of people here in Oz who race mid distance with their Sibes, the same as people in the UK and US - just not in as grueling a race as the Iditarod.

Edited February 5, 2009 by huski

[haven]

Thanks Kelpie-i, interesting to know!

[Sam&Saki]

OMG sorry, I mean Micha not Mishka (haha I know a HUMAN GIRL named Mishka, ooops.)

Yeah I am used to seeing smaller leaner Sibes round these parts, perhaps I just keep seeing a lot from the same lines.

[SilverHaze]

Love these discussions, though you can go round and round in circles.

It's definitly running for the sake of "feeling good" encouraged along by a good dose of prey drive. Having dogs who have the right mentality to be able to switch their prey drive fully to running, and obeying commands is what makes good leaders. Without good leaders a team could take you into god knows where going after god knows what!

Whats interesting is the different mentalities between breeds. With dogs such as the Siberian Husky, they are running for the majority with the "feel good" factor. When they aren't feeling good they will change their pace, conserve their energy etc These dogs aren't out there to kill themselves.

When running Alaskan Huskies a greater skill in reading dogs and "knowing" dogs is required. Many Alaskans have been bred with a "never give up" mentality - they have no off switch. These dogs will literally run themselves to death if allowed to. It is up to the skilled musher to know how to manage these dogs, to make sure they are rested, to know when they are injured. Through months of solid training a musher will know what their dogs are capable of, and will base their race strategies upon their dogs abilities.

As for what defines an Alaskan Husky - well it's a sled dog bred to run and to pull. There is no set blue print for an Alaskan, anything go in it, an I've read fascinating discusions on overseas forums about successful and not so succesful mixes. You will find the mixes tend to vary depending on what the musher is breeding for - are they running sprint, are they running long distance? Sprint will find more predominatly hound mixes, when you look at the long distance dogs, you will find more husky mixes -more designed to cope on the longer, colder runs.

There are a number of purebred teams running races such as the iditarod, they can do it, and they can do it well. However at times the may need a bit more training/conditioning to get them to the same level as the Alaskans, and they don't meet the competitive needs of many musher. In Alaska, Alaskan Huskies are a dime a dozen for someone wanting to set up a kennel. GOOD hard working Siberian Huskies are worth their weight in gold and many years in the breeding!

[SilverHaze]

There are a lot of people here in Oz who race mid distance with their Sibes, the same as people in the UK and US - just not in as grueling a race as the Iditarod.

We actually race Sprint - and short sprint at that, due to conditions. A mid distance race would normally be classified as anything from about 100/200 miles onwards. Sprint races in Eurpoe and the US are usually anywhere from 6 miles to 30 miles. Long Distance is your 500 - 1000 mile races...

In australia due weather and MORE IMPORTANTLY due to our governments restrictions not allowing us to access tracks in parks and forests the longest races you will normally see here will be about 8kms.

Edited February 5, 2009 by SilverHaze

[huski]

There are a lot of people here in Oz who race mid distance with their Sibes, the same as people in the UK and US - just not in as grueling a race as the Iditarod.

We actually race Sprint - and short sprint at that, due to conditions. A mid distance race would normally be classified as anything from about 100/200 miles onwards. Sprint races in Eurpoe and the US are usually anywhere from 6 miles to 30 miles. Long Distance is your 500 - 1000 mile races...

In australia due weather and MORE IMPORTANTLY due to our governments restrictions not allowing us to access tracks in parks and forests the longest races you will normally see here will be about 8kms.

Sorry SH I knew I'd get my terminology wrong! Just proves how much I know about sledding, I have never done more than the intro days ;)

[huski]

OMG sorry, I mean Micha not Mishka (haha I know a HUMAN GIRL named Mishka, ooops.)

Yeah I am used to seeing smaller leaner Sibes round these parts, perhaps I just keep seeing a lot from the same lines.

Micha is so not small ;)

A terrible pic but you can see he is quite tall (at the max size for the breed) and his big chest. I see a lot of older Sibes his size, less so with the younger ones but I think (I could be wrong) these lines are more popular in QLD.

[Kelpie-i]

I am interested in your comments Silverhaze, and just for the record, I am by no means an expert in sled dogs ie sled pulling or races, just what was told to me during the seminar and am reading about at the moment, so please feel free to correct me at any time. ;)

It's definitly running for the sake of "feeling good" encouraged along by a good dose of prey drive

I find it really difficult to see where and how prey drive fits with sled pulling. We all assume that just because a dog runs, then it must be prey drive. This isn't always the case. Some dogs love to run, just as some people love to exercise and run. Prey drive, or the predatory motor pattern is a survival instinct and is really only relevant in the "chase" of something, usually related to movement which stimulates the drive. Sled dogs pull and run, so apart from their love of running, there is no predatory key impulse going on....ie. they are not "chasing" anything.

As for what defines an Alaskan Husky - well it's a sled dog bred to run and to pull. There is no set blue print for an Alaskan, anything go in it, an I've read fascinating discusions on overseas forums about successful and not so succesful mixes. You will find the mixes tend to vary depending on what the musher is breeding for - are they running sprint, are they running long distance? Sprint will find more predominatly hound mixes, when you look at the long distance dogs, you will find more husky mixes -more designed to cope on the longer, colder runs.

There was also discussion about the proper "pairing" of the dogs for similar gait. Ray showed us images and footage of bady paired partners with differing gaits which looked extremely messy and slowed the team down significantly. Similarly proportioned pairs with same/similar gaits mean a smoother run and perhaps the winners cup. One image in Ray's book shows a perfectly matched pair standing side by side they looked like sihlouette of each other. They were Greyhound crosses.

GOOD hard working Siberian Huskies are worth their weight in gold and many years in the breeding!

I am intrigued....where in the world are they working Sibes? From what was told, Sibes are not favoured for sled pulling work (real work, not sport) at all, not even Malamutes.

[SilverHaze]

It's definitly running for the sake of "feeling good" encouraged along by a good dose of prey drive

I find it really difficult to see where and how prey drive fits with sled pulling. We all assume that just because a dog runs, then it must be prey drive. This isn't always the case. Some dogs love to run, just as some people love to exercise and run. Prey drive, or the predatory motor pattern is a survival instinct and is really only relevant in the "chase" of something, usually related to movement which stimulates the drive. Sled dogs pull and run, so apart from their love of running, there is no predatory key impulse going on....ie. they are not "chasing" anything.

Hmm...a really good sled dog, runs for the love of it. There is just no denying that. However many dogs improve their performance with the added element of the chase. Personally i prefer a dog who runs for the sake of running. However there are many dogs out there that increase performance when they have the chase on. When they can see the team ahead, they pick up, they close the distance. The dog who is running purely for the chase, will slow the minute they pass the team in front. ALL dogs will chase, however it's just a case of how much that chase makes up their whole drive to run that will determine how successful the dog is when working. Many of your team dogs will work on an aspect of chase - they always have the dogs in front that they just can't quite catch lol

There was also discussion about the proper "pairing" of the dogs for similar gait. Ray showed us images and footage of bady paired partners with differing gaits which looked extremely messy and slowed the team down significantly. Similarly proportioned pairs with same/similar gaits mean a smoother run and perhaps the winners cup. One image in Ray's book shows a perfectly matched pair standing side by side they looked like sihlouette of each other. They were Greyhound crosses.

This is essential!!! You need a team of matched dogs. The dogs need to complement each other in their gait and performance to gain the best performance from your team.

GOOD hard working Siberian Huskies are worth their weight in gold and many years in the breeding!

I am intrigued....where in the world are they working Sibes? From what was told, Sibes are not favoured for sled pulling work (real work, not sport) at all, not even Malamutes.

Any running in harness is work. Don't mistake racing for not working. The dogs don't know they are racing. To them they are working. It's not sport to the dogs, it's work.

Here are a few kennels to look at with working siberians - both kennels listed have completed the iditarod, and one even has dogs which are titled in the ring.

http://www.northwapiti.com/

http://www.jedeyesleddogs.com/

there are many more Siberian Kennels doing mid distance races, and a number of Sprint Kennels if you would like me to give you some links.

[SilverHaze]

This is a great forum for reading more about all aspects of working dogs in harness, racing, breeding and anything else to do with sled dogs.

http://www.sleddogcentral.com/forum/

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Interesting thread!

Sibes are a working breed. They where MEANT to work and ENJOY working. Of course there is prey drive but like SH said "It s a feel good factor." I dont know about you but I feel GOOD during and after I go for a mile run so I assume its the same for them. However, my drive is very different lol I am sure they dont care if they are in shape and I know I'm not chasing cats and anything else little that is going bump in the night!

Sibes where never meant to be racers like Alaskan huskies (who are mutts. Siberian husky x sighthound (normally smooth Saluki to get the speed)) The old AKC standards says sibes should be able to reach 25mph.

Edited February 6, 2009 by my_sibe_owns_me

[WoofnHoof]

I don't think it's so much the motivation in question as the original purpose of the behaviour - why exactly does it feel good to run and run with no prey in sight? What purpose would this behaviour have had originally? I'm still leaning towards migratory behaviour because prey-oritented behaviours usually have a clearer link between the selectively bred behaviour and the original hunting behaviour, whereas the link between hunting behaviour and sled pulling is tenuous IMO.

[Just Midol]

I don't think it's so much the motivation in question as the original purpose of the behaviour - why exactly does it feel good to run and run with no prey in sight? What purpose would this behaviour have had originally? I'm still leaning towards migratory behaviour because prey-oritented behaviours usually have a clearer link between the selectively bred behaviour and the original hunting behaviour, whereas the link between hunting behaviour and sled pulling is tenuous IMO.

Yaha.

This is what I am getting it.

It's all well & good that they feel good, but a drive is anything which compels them to do something. Prey drive compels them to chase moving objects (which of course can be used in many ways like Tony said) so in my mind, it IS a drive which is compeling them to run (and in turn makes them feel good) but it might just not be a type of drive which is commonly recognised in the dog training world.

I like your link between migratory behaviour though. I also think pack drive comes into it but they still have the desire to pull and run by themselves so to a very low extent.

[Kelpie-i]

Many of your team dogs will work on an aspect of chase - they always have the dogs in front that they just can't quite catch lol

So I wonder what the dogs in the leading team are chasing?

Sibes are a working breed. They where MEANT to work and ENJOY working

This is the category that the ANKC and other governing bodies around the world place them in, otherwise Sibes and unfortunately most breeds nowadays are not bred for working purposes. There are no Sibes out there actually working for a living, rather more for sporting reasons....well for those who actually partake in a sport with their dogs. Sport is not work and does not and cannot simulate a true working environment. Sport and races are controlled in length and time and have rules and regulations with weight allowances etc.

Although that is not to say that they don't enjoy doing what they were, once upon a time, originally bred for and that is pull.

I don't think it's so much the motivation in question as the original purpose of the behaviour - why exactly does it feel good to run and run with no prey in sight?

Predatory drive requires key impulses to set it off. From what Prof Ray Coppinger states, and he is one of the most highly regarded animal biologists in the world who studes predatory motor patterns in wolves and dogs, (not verbatim) when sled dogs race the only motivation is the feel good factor. When a dog runs, their brains release chemical endorphins which emit the "feel good" feeling. This same phenomenon occurs with us when we exercise. It becomes addictive and this is exactly why sled dogs enjoy doing what they do.

Also, the pace of the sled dog is not conducive with predatory drive. It is actually a trot rather than a run. The trotting is controlled and paced, again pretty much like jogging in humans. The dogs establish rhythm breathing with their heart rates so that they can intake and metabolise maximum oxygen levels. If they run too fast, they will tire, therefore the musher must ensure that he/she keeps them at a steady pace. This is most definitely not prey drive example.

And lastly, when dogs are in predatory drive their pupils are fully dilated, when sled dogs are racing they are not.

Did you also know that an extremely fit sled dog's blood is thick and almost "sludge" like due to the high concentration of oxygen? Interesting fact!

[my_sibe_owns_me]

The original purpose was to work for food. They only stuck with the people during the winter so they could survive. They let them loose again during the summer. I guess to REALLY find out WHY sibes blindly run/pull you'd have to figure out what those people saw in the breed and why they thought they could work them.

Kelp- There very well COULD be sibes who are still working dogs. No, people are not limited to them like they where but it doesnt mean there isnt people out their using them for what they where meant for. There are still Canadian dogs (Maybe I am saying the 'breed' wrong?) who people still work. Not race but work. Its not what they do NOW its what their original purpose WAS. If we didnt breed them for what they where meant to be then world would be overwhelmed with BYBs who just breed two dogs to make a dog who could sit on our chairs without caring about style or structure.

Edited February 6, 2009 by my_sibe_owns_me

[WoofnHoof]

That is interesting Kelpie-i, the endorphin sensitivity in sibes must be quite strong, stronger than that in other breeds and certainly stronger than my own! Perhaps the selection pressure was inadvertant in selecting dogs which enjoyed running for running's sake? Perhaps it was a random mutation resulting in stronger response to the endorphins released by excercise, it would be interesting to compare a running sibe's endorphin levels to the levels in a running wolf, would be nice if it were possible.

[SilverHaze]

Many of your team dogs will work on an aspect of chase - they always have the dogs in front that they just can't quite catch lol

So I wonder what the dogs in the leading team are chasing?

The level of "drive" between sleddogs differs - and thats the difference between a good leader, and a dog who works well in harness but is definitely a team dog (team dog being anything that is a position behind the lead dogs).

This is the category that the ANKC and other governing bodies around the world place them in, otherwise Sibes and unfortunately most breeds nowadays are not bred for working purposes. There are no Sibes out there actually working for a living, rather more for sporting reasons....well for those who actually partake in a sport with their dogs. Sport is not work and does not and cannot simulate a true working environment. Sport and races are controlled in length and time and have rules and regulations with weight allowances etc.

You obviously don't comprehend the training that goes into a team to get them to level of say a long distance race. Can you explain to me the difference between a team that does 5 training runs per week of say between 40 - 80 miles and the "work" that say the esikmo's and the trappers who used to use the dogs in their daily lives is? My guess is the did the same work, probably pulled the same weights, did day runs, did over night expedition runs etc. People who work their dogs for sport don't just pull them out of a backyard and expect them to run a 1000 miles. These dogs are worked, conditioned, trained mentaly and physically to run in harness over long distances pulling a light load. The race itself is just a small portion of these dogs lives. You need to get them to that point. It is the training that would be equal to the true working environment.

Did you also know that an extremely fit sled dog's blood is thick and almost "sludge" like due to the high concentration of oxygen? Interesting fact!

Yup - i sure did, many of them are also difficult to find the veins on when wanting to draw blood, and many also have larger hearts!

[mysticpaw]

Some interesting information.

http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/faqFkids.htm

Edited February 7, 2009 by mysticpaw

[Erny]

Does 'opposition reflex' have anything (even a small part) to do with the pulling? I wonder if sibes are more sensitive to it (generally speaking). Not to the exclusion of their genetic trend for running of course.

[WoofnHoof]

Does 'opposition reflex' have anything (even a small part) to do with the pulling? I wonder if sibes are more sensitive to it (generally speaking). Not to the exclusion of their genetic trend for running of course.

I haven't heard of 'opposition reflex' before, is it like when horses push back when pressure is applied? If so that could very well be a key element - do you know what purpose this reflex developed for?