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Sibes Pulling Sleds


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What drive are they using to pull a sled?

Why do they find it so enjoyable to pull sleds, which in turn leads to their desire to run?

I have my own beliefs and theories on this, but I want to hear others views.

Is it the desire to run which in turn leads to pulling the sled? I have wondered this myself, why is it that on a lead my dog has so much more focus and clarity in his way of going than the haphazard dashing about he does while off lead? I have no idea why the lead invokes such a strong instinctive response and where that instinct would have originated. Other behaviours can be clearly linked to specific hunting behaviours (ie herding, scent tracking etc) but running in harness I can only loosely relate to the running with the pack behaviour, in a similar way that thoroughbreds have the natural running with the herd behaviour amplified and exaggerated by their breeding. Perhaps the motivation comes from the "anyone left behind is a goner" behaviour but then why is it linked so strongly to the action of working in harness? The only other times my dog is so incredibly focused and driven is when he is hunting something.

I don't know, it's very interesting though.

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I know next to nothing about sledding but I'd say the answer would lie partly in the manner in which the dog was trained and how their natural instincts to pull were reinforced. Having said that I'm going to put myself out there and say pack drive, with the potential for prey drive depending on the above.

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I don't believe it's prey drive simply because I don't see how pulling weight or running with no direction relates to hunting. If someone can explain the link to me I'd appreciate it :)

It's definitely instinctual and breeding has amplified it, but trainers seem to discuss four drives: Pack, Prey, Play & Food. I can't see how a Huskies desire to run & pull relates to any of those completely. If anything, I think it comes under an entirely new heading & drive type. I don't know of many other breeds (non-sleding breeds that is) that have the instinctual desire to run and keep on running that Huskies have. Most from what I've seen are running to get to something (prey), because they smell something (prey) or because they see something (prey) where to me Huskies just seem to enjoy running. This was very evident in Axle where he'd simply run for the hell of it with no direction or cause. He'd stop to sniff when he accidentally trod in a piece of cow shit but other than that I saw no other prey type behaviours exhibited from him whilst running away.

ETA: forgot two words.

Edited by Just Midol
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I can't resist. . .

It's four foot drive.

I think they just like to run in a pack . . . sled or no sled. They are energetic dogs, and I think most of them get cooped up or chained when they're not mushing. If it were prey drive, I'd think it might switch to real prey, with the result that the sled ended out crashing through bushes in a jolly chase of some animal.

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I don't believe it's prey drive simply because I don't see how pulling weight or running with no direction relates to hunting. If someone can explain the link to me I'd appreciate it :thumbsup:

It's definitely instinctual and breeding has amplified it, but trainers seem to discuss four drives: Pack, Prey, Play & Food. I can't see how a Huskies desire to run & pull relates to any of those completely. If anything, I think it comes under an entirely new heading & drive type. I don't know of many other breeds (non-sleding breeds that is) that have the instinctual desire to run and keep on running that Huskies have. Most from what I've seen are running to get to something (prey), because they smell something (prey) or because they see something (prey) where to me Huskies just seem to enjoy running. This was very evident in Axle where he'd simply run for the hell of it with no direction or cause. He'd stop to sniff when he accidentally trod in a piece of cow shit but other than that I saw no other prey type behaviours exhibited from him whilst running away.

ETA: forgot two words.

That's where I think training comes into it. For all I know they run after a carrot on a stick much like greyhounds chase a lure, in which case prey drive would certainly come into it. I don't think that's generally how sled dogs are trained, but I'd say you could do it that way. A dogs drives and natural instincts can lead it to exhibit certain behaviours, but you can also work a dog in different drives through training and reinforcement. It's not all about drive though IMO.

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Perhaps it's a migratory instinct? Don't wolf packs migrate with the herds? Running is not necessarily running full tilt either my fellow will quite happily trot for miles.

Haven my boy has not even remotely been trained in sledding, he gets walked in a walking harness and sometimes I'll give him the turn commands if I remember but essentially it's all him so this is a very strong drive without any training influence. He is very purposeful and will generally go straight along the road/track most of the time.

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Oh don't get me wrong, I believe the behaviour to be largely based in instinct and not all about drive. I just believe the drive the dog works in can be altered, strengthened or reduced depending on how the natural instincts are shaped through training and reinforcement (or punishment as the case may be).

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I'm sure with sledding Sibes and Mals a large part is training and a large part is running with the pack...

But there does seem to be something more to it than that.

Put a body harness (as opposed to a flat collar and lead or halter / head harness) on my girl and she'll suddenly start pulling you with all her might - not to get away or get off lead or be ahead of you, she just wants to pull you along and seems to really enjoy it :thumbsup:

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Midol, its prey drive.As you know prey drive shows itself in a variety of ways in a variety of breeds.

The American Bulldog chasing and holding,the Kelpie mustering sheep,the beagle scenting,the greyhound chasing the lure,the cattledog heeling cattle and so on.Those are just a few examples of prey drive.

This is not directed at anybody here, but Humans at times like to complicate things when they do not have to be.I find it amusing when people mention prey drive and then play drive or ball drive when its all the one thing which is prey drive.

Pups go into prey drive when playing.Other predators such as lions,tigers so forth have some common ground with dogs.Watch lion cubs mucking around pouncing,jumping and wrestling with each other.Its all about practising skills that prey drive encompasse's which will be used later on in life.Pups show the same behaviour pouncing,running and jumping on each other as Lion cubs and so on.Notice with Pups that if two are mucking around, they will take it turn about in the two roles.One pup will play the part of predator and the other the part of prey animal.The roles will swap back and forth.

To a dog even when we are taking him for a walk, its a hunt.Watch how some dogs get so excited about going in the car.To them its a big hunt.Notice how some dogs if you stop and get out leaving the dog in the car,when you come back the dog has moved to the drivers or front seat, as he wants to be at the front of the hunt.

The Sled dog gains drive satisfaction by pulling and moving forward.Its not really a mystery.The sled dogs were selected of course for their variation of prey drive.

Lets look at a similar type of behaviour but in this case its a negative or unwanted.We have all seen a dog dragging somebody along the street on a supposed walk!!!!The Dog is jumping,lunging,pulling against the lead and the owner.What"s going on?Well the dog is on a Hunt and wants to get there and keep going.The Owner has never taught the dog to walk on a loose lead.The Dog only knows one way and thats to pull.The Dog has learnt for me to experience the hunt and get to where I want to,I must pull.The Dog is prepared to pull inorder to get what he wants.

See the similarity between the above example and that of the sled dog,even though one is a negative and the other a positive.

The Sled dog pulls and runs as that way he gets drive satisfaction. Tony

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Having attended a seminar with Prof Ray Coppinger in November he spoken at length about sled dogs and sled races. He'd been breeding and racing sled dogs for 12 years.

There is no particular drive being engaged by sled dogs to make them pull and run (in a sled pulling capacity of course). It is merely a "feel good" thing for the dogs which is why they do it. He likened it to when couples cuddle, kiss or hold hands....is merely feels good so they do it.

The dogs are not actually chasing anything, but simply running to reach a destination and there is no "prey" reward at the other end.

BTW, they don't actually use Siberian Husky's for sled races like the IDITAROD (sorry Husky people :banghead: ). They are too clumsy and are not "built" correctly to withstand the pressure of the long hauls and steady speeds. Apparently this is mainly due to what has been done to the S/Husky conformation over the years of breeding that has seen them lose the ability to pull for long distances and maintain steady gaits and speed.

They use mainly cross breed dogs and what they call "Alaskan Huskies" which, from what I remember, a mixed breed dog with some spitz breed in it somewhere. Dogs like Border Collies and even greyhound crosses are also used sometimes.

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Ohhhhhhhh are "Alaskan Huskies" what they use in movies like Snow Dogs and Eight Below?

I couldn't understand why in the "making of" bit they would refer to what were clearly Mals as Mals, but then refer to all the other dogs as Huskies - even though they were far too solid to be Sibes, and looked so much like Sibe Mal crosses?

*lightbulb moment* hehe

PS Feelgood theory makes more sense to me than prey drive theory. I know as an Akita, Saki isn't a perfect example of a sledding dog - but FWIW she will pull for the fun of it, nothing to do with prey.

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Ohhhhhhhh are "Alaskan Huskies" what they use in movies like Snow Dogs and Eight Below?

I couldn't understand why in the "making of" bit they would refer to what were clearly Mals as Mals, but then refer to all the other dogs as Huskies - even though they were far too solid to be Sibes, and looked so much like Sibe Mal crosses?

No, they are Siberian Huskies in the films.

Alaskan huskies aren't more solid, they are leggier and thinner.

PS Feelgood theory makes more sense to me than prey drive theory. I know as an Akita, Saki isn't a perfect example of a sledding dog - but FWIW she will pull for the fun of it, nothing to do with prey.

I think lots of dogs like to pull though! Daisy would pull if she wasn't trained to walk on a loose leash, even if she isn't on a scent. Walks are stimulating and enjoyable environments so very exciting for dogs.

I know what you mean though.

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Really? Ok I'm back to being confused again then - they were just so much more stocky than the Sibes I'm used to seeing, and not much smaller than the Mals.

Oh I meant, you put a harness on Saki and hang on to the end and she will just pull you. Around the house, around the yard. (Much fun to be had when sitting in a wheely chair or on rollerskates :banghead:) More just to pull than actually to go anywhere. So quite different to when she pulls on lead because she wants to run around and sniff everything, if that makes sense.

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Really? Ok I'm back to being confused again then - they were just so much more stocky than the Sibes I'm used to seeing, and not much smaller than the Mals.

Oh I meant, you put a harness on Saki and hang on to the end and she will just pull you. Around the house, around the yard. (Much fun to be had when sitting in a wheely chair or on rollerskates :banghead:) More just to pull than actually to go anywhere. So quite different to when she pulls on lead because she wants to run around and sniff everything, if that makes sense.

If you look at the pics here you can see that they are a crossbeed, but generally are leaner dogs than Sibes or mals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Husky

Some sibes are quite stocky, I guess it depends on the lines.

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Maybe they just put the cutest cuddliest looking Sibes in the movies rather than ones that actually looked like sled dogs

I think that's probably the case S&S. From the many pics of sled dogs that were shown during the seminar, it was quite obvious they are bred for performance, not looks!

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