Guest Willow Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I am having a bit of a difference of opinion with someone with regards to the teaching of "stay" to puppies. We are talking about 10-16 week olds here. They say a pup that age shouldn't be taught "stay", whereas my belief is that if the individual pup has the capacity to cope, then providing it's taught in small increments, there is no problem with it. ie building duration before distance, and returning to the pup to reward rather than asking for a recall. Teaching this way I have had no dramas, and have seen some lovely solid stays able to be built up....but I have been led to believe I am making a dreadful error here, but I don't understand why. What are your opinions on this? Do you teach stay to pups? If you beleive it shouldn't be done, why do you feel it's inappropriate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm not a professional trainer, but I am curious as to why they say that stay shouldn't be taught to puppies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I was watching an advanced clicker training dvd that recommended you teach more active behaviors prior to teaching a stay. For the simple reason its actually easier to define criteria on a more active behavior (eg teaching dog to lay on a mat) the trainer can clearly see when the dog is moving towards the mat, laying on the mat whereas with a stay its much harder to train the dog to hold position. An active behavior was anything a dead dog can't do. Not to be said that a 10-16 week old dog can't learn a stay. Actually my 10 month old didn't have a stay on for ages as it just wasn't as important as everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I definitely start teaching stay in small increments to those pups who are ready. Why keep an exercise the same and boring for pups who are intelligent and quick to learn and mature? Whats the reason not to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Puppies can learn a lot more then we give them credit for but in 16 weeks really how long a reliable stay can you teach. I think its important since Stay also teaches patience to the pup, and teaches them calm behaviors. Too many people leave training till later when its working against what the dog has learned in its critical period. The earlier the better! Although I am more on the track of not teaching 'stay' as a term but a release word instead and all commands such as sit, drop etc are to be followed until released. I find having most dogs reliably understand 'stay' as in 'I gave you X command and you are to stay in that position' is a little less effective for the average pet owning Joe then releasing your dog on command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Ooops, just read the title, I am not a professional trainer. Edited February 4, 2009 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 My belief is that learning to hold a position and then the handler moving around the puppy with no distance is of more importance than teaching stay as an exercise. I have never taught it in puppy school and I can't see my opinion changing in the near future. I try to look ahead when a stay may be needed for competition or a dire situation and can't help but think handlers would f*** it up- they do anyway- even with adult dogs because they are not thinking about the 3 D's and just love to push their dogs as far as they can. However, that could be an overly pessimistic opinion. As a trainer or advanced handler I don't see any reason why you couldn't teach it with your own pups in a fairly distraction free environment because we are mindful of time span, setting the pup up for success not failure and we have much quicker reaction times but if you are asking in regards to your average Joe Citizen, no I wouldn't. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 A puppy can learn stays fine, but I would be worried about puppies offering stays as a default behaviour or it not being on stimulus control for the rest of its life. For that reason, I chose to teach stay later. These problems can happen at any age, but I think behaviours taught as puppies are more likely to become default behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm not a professional trainer, but I am curious as to why they say that stay shouldn't be taught to puppies? A the school they don't teach it to any dogs at all. The reasoning is that the dog should "stay" until it is released - no special commands needed. For example, someone comes to the door and you have trained your dog to sit when this happens: * The "sit, release" trained dog sits while the owner talks to the person at the door etc. No interruption of conversation. * The "sit, stay, release" dog wants to come to the door unless the owner is constantly telling it to "stay". This makes answering the door etc hard to do. This works really well for my dog. He now stays for about 15 seconds, even if there is a delicious treat to tempt him away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) I don't like to teach stays too early as a general rule. Some pups can cope with it but others don't, it depends on the pup and more importantly who is doing the teaching. My main issue though is that people rush through their foundation training in their haste to teach all the bells and whistles. This can lead to sloppy training and also too much pressure on a dog that just doesn't have the capacity to cope with it. You shouldn't be teaching a pup to sit stay until your sit is absolutely 100% rock solid for example. Then I believe it's better to start by teaching the dog to wait for a release out of the command than it is about teaching them to "stay" as such if that makes sense. I can't stand to see young puppies repeatedly breaking a sit stay because their sit isn't even well established, let alone with a stay and it's even worse when they are punished for it time and time again. Way to blow your training for life ETA: I should clarify that I don't like teaching joe public to teach their dog to stay at a young age. If an experienced trainer and/or handler who reads their dog well, has good timing and understands how to apply the theory of teaching a stay without pushing their dog too hard or using too much compulsion wants to teach their pup to stay I'm fine with that. I guess most pups are capable of learning a stay well and without and adverse side effects if their handlers are capable of teaching them correctly, it's just a big if sometimes. Edited February 4, 2009 by haven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) I won't say it shouldn't be taught, but I will say that I prefer to build up on the position (be it for example sit or drop) first. Sit in front. Sit at side. Sit at other side. Sit when in the back yard. Sit when in the front yard. Sit when out. Sit with some distractions. Sit whenever. I also like to work on the speed of the sit (ie command response). When all of that is happening (with sit and with drop) then I would be more inclined to be concerned about adding distance. This is generally speaking. ETA: I have found with my current boy that his stay work is happening naturally. He well and truly knows that sit means sit until released. He was already used to me adding in the distraction of movement. And he was already used to me doing little dances (Balabanov style ). So when I added in a bit of distance, he didn't seem to blink an eye. It truly was no big deal. Edited February 4, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 why do you need to teach stay if the puppy is already in a sit.. As a book i read said, the word stay isnt required if your dog has a sit, stand and drop command and knows not to release without a cue. There is no need to teach stay as its already part of the criteria of keeping a reliable sit or down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Puppies can learn all sorts of things.... But things you teach them, have to be ongoing... If you think your puppy has learnt 'stay', keep practicing until the puppy has grown up... and then more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 why do you need to teach stay if the puppy is already in a sit.. As a book i read said, the word stay isnt required if your dog has a sit, stand and drop command and knows not to release without a cue. There is no need to teach stay as its already part of the criteria of keeping a reliable sit or down. It's not that simple, you don't just teach a dog to sit and have it magically be able to sit stay because it hasn't been released. It takes a lot of training and particularly proofing to get it happening with distance and under distraction, which is essentially teaching the stay even if you don't use a seperate command IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm not a professional trainer, but I am curious as to why they say that stay shouldn't be taught to puppies? A the school they don't teach it to any dogs at all. The reasoning is that the dog should "stay" until it is released - no special commands needed. For example, someone comes to the door and you have trained your dog to sit when this happens: * The "sit, release" trained dog sits while the owner talks to the person at the door etc. No interruption of conversation. * The "sit, stay, release" dog wants to come to the door unless the owner is constantly telling it to "stay". This makes answering the door etc hard to do. This works really well for my dog. He now stays for about 15 seconds, even if there is a delicious treat to tempt him away. To me it is just a different way of teaching a stay - some outcome (dog not moving) just two different methods - one the dog is given a command and the other the dog is given a release from a command. From my limited experience (which contradicts another poster here who I respect) it is more difficult to teach a person to release the dog than to teach them to use a stay command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 why do you need to teach stay if the puppy is already in a sit.. As a book i read said, the word stay isnt required if your dog has a sit, stand and drop command and knows not to release without a cue. There is no need to teach stay as its already part of the criteria of keeping a reliable sit or down. It's not that simple, you don't just teach a dog to sit and have it magically be able to sit stay because it hasn't been released. It takes a lot of training and particularly proofing to get it happening with distance and under distraction, which is essentially teaching the stay even if you don't use a seperate command IMO. i never implied it did. my point was if you properly teach sit and proof it, theres no need to teach a stay..as that is part of the sit command is to execute it until told to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Only if you choose to train that way. I do and so I agree, but some people just prefer to have a seperate command for various reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 In my opinion, there is no reason to not teach a puppy to 'stay' the trick is to remember the attention span of a pup that age is very short and although they can do it, they can't do it for long. If you allow them to break their stay, then you are not in fact teaching the stay...you must know how long they can do it for and release them prior to them releasing themselves. Gradually building on the length of time in the position. Allowing the pup to release themselves is setting you up for MAJOR problems as an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Thanks for the feedback everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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