Whose The Boss During Walks?

[Kelpie-i]

My dogs know that they are not to pull whilst on the lead, although given half the chance they most certainly would, as was the case when I allowed my 10 year old nephew to walk one of my dogs on lead once. Looked like a steam locomotive pulling a carriage.

However, when we are out in the paddocks and/or walking off lead, they will all choose to either stay by my side or walk behind me, without any retraint required. Ocassionally they will go off and sniff something but will promptly return. We go on adventures as a team and enjoy the open land.

prefer to teach a dog what I want it to do while it's on a leash so I never have to physically control or pull that dog. I think that's what leadership is - you teach them what you want and they change their behaviour to mimic what you want.

Shell, this is not so much leadership, more good handling and training. Watch the demeanour of your dog both on lead and off. If you can keep your dog next to you (or in your general area) whilst off lead then you have a team with a leader.

[corvus]

The way I see it, it behooves a dog to pay attention to where you are when they are on leash regardless of how they might view themselves in the social order in relation to the one on the other end of the leash, at least as long as they are wearing any kind of corrective device or get leash corrections on a flat collar. Or, it behooves them to pay attention because you have taught them that when the leash goes taut they go nowhere. Neither of those things are leadership at all. My dogs don't always just fall in and walk beside me. Sometimes they stop for a sniff or Kivi walks on a 5m longline a lot of the time and he decides to go explore someone's yard. I just talk to them and they generally come back. Not because I display good leadership - half the time they get to do whatever the hell they like - but perhaps more because of just pure classical conditioning. I spent months teaching Kivi verbal suggestions and he knows the routine, now. Funnily enough, it's "hold up" that is the least reliable and that's the one I started first, but it's also the one we have been the least consistent with. I still think the vast majority of training and building a relationship with an animal is classical conditioning and forming habits and routine.

[skip]

I have just brought another CM book cause I like learning about anything training wise.

I have heard these ideas before but I am content if I feel that the dogs will do what I say easily. I am happy if they don't pull and watch where I am walking so they follow lightly on their leads. Off lead I can't lose one of them and the other wanders but he keeps an eye on me.

I walk a lot off lead with one girl chi x who follows in my shadow. So she is at my heels. Not so good at obedience recently as now it seems she doesn't heel as correctly as she once did. She lags behind and trys to get in that spot behind me again.

But I did let them go in doors in front of me. When I read about this as a issue I watched my dogs. I found it interesting in that the lower girl dog could be going flat chat for a door or opening but will always!! stop, duck sideways, and give way to the higher boy dog. So now I do make them both wait so I go first.

[m-j]

He emphasises that in order to be acknowledged by the dogs as the boss (alpha, leader) you have to be in front, even when simply walking through a doorway. However, I'm not so sure about this. Here is why:

Not according the dogs at work. These dogs live in packs (7 packs) until about 10-12 mths with minimal human interference/training. The more submissive dogs are usually away from the alpha dogs the majority of the time, which to me makes sense as if they break a rule they are not conveniently right there to "tell off". Most don't care less who goes through the narrow opening from the large "paddock" to the kennel yards even at feeding time, but they don't go near the bowls, until the alpha has had his fill unless I am there to stop the alpha from being greedy. Having said that about doorways narrow openings my Karabash had a real issue about being passed in doorways and passageways but that could have been conditioning from her previous owners, don't know?? A friend of mine went somewhere in America and studied a semi domesticated wolf pack and she was telling us that the pack was moving around there "paddock" and there was a narrow opening created by by a dam coming close to a fenceline. When the pack came to the narrow opening the pack stopped moving except two in the middle of the pack they continued through the pack lead the way through the narrow opening then the pack followed, then some over took the alpha dog and bitch and they didn't give a toss.

I agree I'm not so sure being in front means you are alpha, is a dog thing, more a human thing I think, the doorway thing is at the discetion of the individual dog, just thoughts.

cheers

M-J

[corvus]

I honestly think the door thing is about personal space more than anything. I've mentioned before that my corgi never cared about doors until she started going blind, then suddenly she's nervous in any tight space with another dog, and if she is in the doorway first, she will tell other dogs to stay back until she is well clear. If the other dog went through first she doesn't really care. She is just nervous of being jostled or trodden on. If there is any degree of tension over personal space between two dogs, a doorway forces them to be closer to one another than they are comfortable with. Little wonder some dogs get snarky around doors.

[Alyosha]

I think when Cesar Milan is talking about walking in front all the time he may be mostly referring to dogs that aleady display dominance issues over people.

If you watch footage of him with his pack they play around him and in front, also playing fetch (which would be interesting with a dog behind you). The key is that they are doing it with respect for him, not barging him out of the way to get in front.

That might be more of an issue...

He works with real problem dogs, most of our dogs would never have these sort of issues as they have a normal healthy relationship with their owners.

Am I making sense?? :D Or rambling??

My dogs often walk in front, but I would think that is normal for sighthounds as they don't want the human in the way if they take off after something! I certainly don't want to be in front of them if I release them to run after wild rabbits!!

It would be interesting for a gundog to try and work behind it's owner, or any dog for that matter. Herding, terriers... I can't think of any function a working dog can accomplish behind it's owner??? But they certainly accept their trainer's as leaders.

[blacklabrador]

If your dog is walking ahead of you then he is trying to take charge. He needs to be corrected and brought back to heel.

[Kajtek]

Maybe, just maybe it's all about "good dog manners".

If you are ok with your dog running in front of you - that's grand. If you want them to say behind - that's ok too.

I think the most important thing is that your expectations are met.

As long as the dog WANTS to listen to you... all is well (that's the school I subscribe to )

[sandgrubber]

I think when Cesar Milan is talking about walking in front all the time he may be mostly referring to dogs that aleady display dominance issues over people.

If you watch footage of him with his pack they play around him and in front, also playing fetch (which would be interesting with a dog behind you). The key is that they are doing it with respect for him, not barging him out of the way to get in front.

Where do you find such footage? I've watched episodes 1-26 of the Dog Whisperer and there's a whole of about five seconds of CM on skateboard with dogs pulling him (on the episode about the very aggressive APBT with a heart shaped patch who spent 6 weeks at his place).