Whose The Boss During Walks?

[Hetzer]

Occasionally I see pictures of Cesar Milan purposefully walking in front of his "pack" of dogs. He emphasises that in order to be acknowledged by the dogs as the boss (alpha, leader) you have to be in front, even when simply walking through a doorway. However, I'm not so sure about this. Here is why:

1. (On a personal note) my Vizsla instinctively walks in front of me, but turns glances at me regularly to see where I am going, and if I have altered my course, she alters hers accordingly. If I stop, she pauses, and if I'm standing for a couple of moments will run towards me and stand/sit next to me. To my mind, this indicates that I am leading her. If on a short leash, she'll trot along beside me.

2. If the instintive purpose of a Hunting Dog is flushing out game, it would be pretty rediculous to have it walk behind the human.

3. In a dog sled, the dogs are out in front. The top dog may be out the front and leading, but it still is under the command of the human in the sled. Do the front runner dogs think they rank higher than the human simply due to their proximity out in front?

4. When you see Military or Police Dogs with handlers, the dogs are out front for a variety of pretty obvious reasons. Who would suggest that the dog is in charge in these scenarios? I don't know if I am anthromorphizing , but it seems logical to have less ranking individuals out front, like in an army patrol. The dogs superior senses can locate dangers and this protects the leader.

5. On the issue of "don't let a dog go through a door before you"... isn't the dog just anticipating the human's movements, especially if its a routine? Seems to me the dog is acting like as escort rather than a boss.

I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions on this issue. Thank you!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It's only a problem if the dog can't be called back and is forging ahead of where you want it to be. Ultimately I think this stuff is often massively over processed.

You're the leader if the dog is where you're happy for it to be - if that's in front, it's in front.

[Kavik]

I like to be able to see my dog on walks, and see what they are doing, their body language etc. This is much easier if the dog is in front or next to you

Edited February 2, 2009 by Kavik

[JulesP]

I like to see what my dogs are up to. You also don't want an agility dog to be behind you. I am also not sure if anyone told dogs about this rule, lol. My old dog Fern is very much boss dog but the 2 younger ones run in front of her. She doesn't seem to take it as an insult to her leadership.

[Henrietta]

I don't think walking in front necessarily equates to leadership issues. There has got to be other factors at play? Some dogs are just not trained to do certain things, as opposed to inadequate leadership. I don't mind where my dog is on lead, as long as she doesn't pull, and listens to me.

[VJB]

My dog runs in front of me, then stops 20 or so metres away and looks back, waits til I catch up. This continues throughout our of leash time. If I over-take her, and just keep walking, she runs to catch

up. I think she keeps a real good eye on where I'm going, even if she's sniffing around everywhere. As for on the lead, she is generally a step or two ahead of me, but I don't interpret this as her

being dominant or trying to be pack leader. She knows who's boss,,, tries to get away with mischief at times, but she knows.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

i think it depends on the situation. I also agree that this kind of thing is over processed but there is truth to itm just not a one size fits all rule, like most things in training.

With the running through doorway, like you say in some instances its fine, but in others its not. Say the handler is opening the door to come inside, and the dog barges past him to get in, thats not acceptable.

same as walking, the control starts from when you call the dog to clip on the lead, then the dog should be healing and walking out calmly, not shoving past you to get out the front door, or straining the lead. Out on the street his trying to tell you what pace to walk at, what direction to go in, and when to stop and start. Well it should be the other way around.

so overall i think its based on common sense. the dog has to be in a position where it looks and listens for cues from its owner before it does anything, ie, follows your lead, instead of doing everything on its own initiative.

[Paulp]

Doorways I generally enforce except when I send the dogs through in front of me but IMO when a dog is walking on leash as long as it is respecting a boundary placed on it (ie the leash and respecting it by not pulling) it is acceding to you as pack leader.

[sandgrubber]

not to mention what would happen if you trained a dog to walk behind and then took it into the show ring

I walk my four together on lines. Having them go behind would be a nightmare.

[~*Shell*~]

If you look at the opening credits of Cesar's show, it shows his dogs running in front of him.

I think being the boss is more about a dog knowing where you are and respecting the constraints of the leash rather than having to walk behind you.

[huski]

If you look at the opening credits of Cesar's show, it shows his dogs running in front of him.

I think being the boss is more about a dog knowing where you are and respecting the constraints of the leash rather than having to walk behind you.

Yep I completely agree. I have a 'sled dog' whose instinct is to pull, but this would be completely unacceptable on a walk. On a sled however...

[Hetzer]

I like to be able to see my dog on walks, and see what they are doing, their body language etc. This is much easier if the dog is in front or next to you

Very True!

[Sam&Saki]

Agreed, there are so many other factors as to how a dog walks on lead - as long as they still let you direct the pace, the direction, tell them when to stop or sit or wait, then you are still the boss IMO.

[Sam&Saki]

Ooops just realised the original photo was of off-leash dogs!

Funny, I see situations just like that photo at the dog beach all the time - one person will be running or striding purposefully down the beach and a dog will follow them, and then five other dogs will follow them, and suddenly some random person finds themselves to be the pied piper of the dog beach

When Saki's at the off leash beach I allow her to run, I don't expect her to walk right next to or behind me. She always circles back to me, and if I stop walking she'll hang around me unless I encourage her to go running again. And if I say "this way" or "come" she comes running back to me. I'm the leader as she does what I tell her to, and if I don't tell her anything she'll check back in with me. That's good enough for me x

[corvus]

As long as they respect the constraint of the leash you are in charge? What does that mean, really? Obey the leash and you obey me? You could say the same about fences if the dog never tries to break out of them. A leash is indeed a constraint, and that's really all it is for the most part. It's there to stop your dog getting away from you. Doesn't sound much like an indication of leadership to me. Cesar himself talks fondly of homeless people whose dogs don't walk on leashes at all. I don't much like leashes. There is such a temptation to pull and control with them and once you are in the driving seat you tend to pay less attention to what your dog wants to do and why. That's why I taught Kivi a string of verbal suggestions as well. He is always following my steady stream of suggestions when we are out walking. He pays a lot more attention to me than a dog plodding automatically at heel all the time, just as an example.

When I was a kid I used to go for hikes all the time in the bush with Penny. If I couldn't decide which animal track to follow I'd step back and suggest Penny pick one. She would, and it was always fun trying to follow a small corgi's idea of a track. Nonetheless, she was very leery of picking a way unless I'd given her permission, and if I hadn't and she somehow found herself in front of me she was constantly checking back. She never liked being there for long and usually preferred to be walking so close to my heels I'd kick her jaw with each step.

The door thing has some truth in it for some dogs. Penny never used to mind, but has become very snarky around doors since her eyesight deteriorated. It's a tight space and she feels nervous when there's a big silly puppy right on top of her. She also won't stand for Kivi lying across the door to the lounge room. As far as she's concerned she should be in there and when the gate is opened she will rectify this human oversight.

[Sarah L]

Now being the proud owner of a GSP I do not enforce the rule of always having my dog at my side or going through doorways after me. To a gun dog this is not a realistic situation and goes against their grain. I think it depends on the breed of dog you have. But still no matter what the breed some owners still enforce this situation on their dogs in some occasions even when the dog was not bread for that purpose.

With the exception of true working herding dogs who naturally fall behind when occasions arise then if you think of it most of the common breads like GSD's Rottie's Husky's and Malamutes and so many others to long to mention on here then they simply were not bread to be behind or beside a human. Yes it is definetly over processed in my opinion.

However if you live with up to 20 or more dogs at any one time like Cesar Milan does then it may be a necessary to do what he does. Other than that I think he may be misinterpreted.

[WoofnHoof]

My 'sled' dog is only comfortable when he is out front with a little weight in the lead - he thinks he's doing his job and he always has one or both ears directed back towards me listening to where I am and where I want him to go. When my chi comes out he prefers to be behind me. Really depends on the breed I think, many herding and heeling breeds are happy to be behind as far as I can tell most horse people train the dog to follow behind the horse as it's far safer and the dogs seem very comfortable there.

I doubt it's got much to do with leadership at all since there are many many signals that the dog uses to identify you as the leader, even though my dogs aren't trained in much of anything they do see me as the 'boss'.

I've never even noticed who goes through the door first mostly, the other day I had to urge mine to go in front I think they tend to hang back so I don't trip over them!

[huski]

My 'sled' dog is only comfortable when he is out front with a little weight in the lead - he thinks he's doing his job and he always has one or both ears directed back towards me listening to where I am and where I want him to go.

Micha does that too! And he is really good with directions and responds instantly if I say things like 'up' (i.e. jump up over the gutter) etc.

While I don't like pulling and like to walk with a loose leash, I like to give him a bit of room to walk in front of me as I prefer the dogs to walk a bit in front so I can see what they are doing!

[paddles]

I like my dogs to walk in front, there is no option of crossing behind me then (I always walk on lead) and also I can see them. I like to have a slight pull on the lead, not too tight, and they seem to do this quite happily. Around here, the biggest problem is having loose dogs come out at us, and by having them in front ofme, I can defend them.

They are English springer spaniels.

Oh, also, I've sort of trained them like sled dogs, since Ihave 2 boys, who I am sure, with boys being boys will get the idea of having the dogs pull them, (Many thanks to the Victorian sled dog club for information on training supplied)

[~*Shell*~]

As long as they respect the constraint of the leash you are in charge? What does that mean, really? Obey the leash and you obey me? You could say the same about fences if the dog never tries to break out of them. A leash is indeed a constraint, and that's really all it is for the most part. It's there to stop your dog getting away from you. Doesn't sound much like an indication of leadership to me. Cesar himself talks fondly of homeless people whose dogs don't walk on leashes at all. I don't much like leashes. There is such a temptation to pull and control with them and once you are in the driving seat you tend to pay less attention to what your dog wants to do and why. That's why I taught Kivi a string of verbal suggestions as well. He is always following my steady stream of suggestions when we are out walking. He pays a lot more attention to me than a dog plodding automatically at heel all the time, just as an example.

When I was a kid I used to go for hikes all the time in the bush with Penny. If I couldn't decide which animal track to follow I'd step back and suggest Penny pick one. She would, and it was always fun trying to follow a small corgi's idea of a track. Nonetheless, she was very leery of picking a way unless I'd given her permission, and if I hadn't and she somehow found herself in front of me she was constantly checking back. She never liked being there for long and usually preferred to be walking so close to my heels I'd kick her jaw with each step.

The door thing has some truth in it for some dogs. Penny never used to mind, but has become very snarky around doors since her eyesight deteriorated. It's a tight space and she feels nervous when there's a big silly puppy right on top of her. She also won't stand for Kivi lying across the door to the lounge room. As far as she's concerned she should be in there and when the gate is opened she will rectify this human oversight.

I don't see it as being the same - I do not have hold of my fence, I am holding the leash. I'm not around the whole time Zero is in the backyard and being contained with a fence, I am always there while he is on leash. I think a lot of people use the leash in the wrong way and use it to try and make a dog do what they want it to do, I prefer to teach a dog what I want it to do while it's on a leash so I never have to physically control or pull that dog. I think that's what leadership is - you teach them what you want and they change their behaviour to mimic what you want.

It's not about obeying the leash and therefore obeying me, it's about knowing where I am in relation to where the dog is at all times. If I stop, the dog should know that before they hit the point where I am being pulled, if I change direction, the dog should change direction to follow me. It's all about awareness and never being at the point where the dog forgets about me and just starts doing whatever it wants.

Occasionally I let Zero choose the route we're going to take on a walk - do I think that this makes him the leader? No. If I was to say "no, I want to go this way", he should follow me even if he doesn't want to go the way I want to go - that's what makes me the leader. Zero also has words I use to tell him what I am about to do - I wouldn't call them suggestions like you do, but they're not commands either. I'll tell him that we're going left up ahead, warn him that he's about to hit the end of the leash and tell him I'm about to slow down if we're going to walk past a person with children or dogs.