Dunbar Seminar Report

[Kavik]

I think it is unrealistic to think that a breeder could toilet train and socialise a pup as extensively by 8 weeks. They are just BABIES! Even if the breeder did have them toilet trained, moving to a new house without their siblings would likely disrupt that. Would be cool if they had exposure to lots of different stuff (I disagree with Midol about that one!) but would be very difficult, and I certainly wouldn't expect it, expecially if the breeder is in a remote area.

I like the quadrant, for explaining methodologies as Erny said. I also like theoretical discussions, though I understand not everyone does. However, I certainly don't go trying to explain it to obedience classes I take! The owners usually have no interest in learning that, and it is certainly true that it can be difficult enough getting everyone to turn left or right when you say, much less anything more theoretical

[poodlefan]

met and been handled by at least 100 people to have met cats and other adult dogs/horses/sheep chickens or whatever.

That this socialisations continues for the rest of their lives. He is big on bite inhibition

I hope that never catches on. I wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who does that.

From what I've read from him he seems to be a "my way or the highway" type of trainer, he is right, everyone else who disagrees with him is wrong with no shades of grey.

Keep reading then Midol. That's not what he's like at all. He's got a healthy ego and strong opinons but he's got years of experience and seeing him chat to trainers, I think an open mind also. I bet you'd be surprised to learn he's not totally against e-collars for example. That's something a lot of people dont' know about him but he is talking about using them aversively only for certain types of behaviour modification.

Being a vet, and dealing with problem dogs, his focus is on giving dogs the best start in life to prevent training and behavioural issues.

Personally I think some of his ideas are very good. His view is that if you want a pup for a family home, buy a pup from a family home. He thinks pups should be raised inside, with the family and all the sights and sounds of a normal domestic environment. I'd be delighted to buy a pup raised in the manner he describes. Look how many posts we get right here on DOL from new puppy owners struggling with toilet training for a start.

I heartilyagree with him on his puppy raising views and there are studies that support his views also.

[Erny]

I bet you'd be surprised to learn he's not totally against e-collars for example. That's something a lot of people dont' know about him but he is talking about using them aversively only for certain types of behaviour modification.

I agree, PF. I've been to two or three of his seminars and from that gathered that he will give a dog a physical correction where warranted. Do you mean HE is thinking about using e-collars (as per your quote above) or are you saying that he says at seminars that they might be used for certain types of behaviour modification. I have heard the latter.

If he is talking about (he himself) using them or advocating them he might find himself kicked off the APDT membership though.

[poodlefan]

I bet you'd be surprised to learn he's not totally against e-collars for example. That's something a lot of people dont' know about him but he is talking about using them aversively only for certain types of behaviour modification.

I agree, PF. I've been to two or three of his seminars and from that gathered that he will give a dog a physical correction where warranted. Do you mean HE is thinking about using e-collars (as per your quote above) or are you saying that he says at seminars that they might be used for certain types of behaviour modification. I have heard the latter.

If he is talking about (he himself) using them or advocating them he might find himself kicked off the APDT membership though.

I've read and heard him speak about their use aversively for dealing with stock chasing dogs. I dont' think he exactly trumpetted that view at APDT though. :wink:

I think he's a pragmatist. He believes is using positive motivational training (as has already been pointed out, he pretty much was its first champion) but he knows that some behaviours cannot be modified without the use of aversives.

Edited February 3, 2009 by poodlefan

[Rusky]

If he is talking about (he himself) using them or advocating them he might find himself kicked off the APDT membership though

I doubt that very much.

He knew he was speaking to positive trainers in WA. He said exactly what the op said. There may be a place for an e collar but so far he has only met one or two people who need or know how to use them. The pet owner who visits a trainer for a single session or buys one online is a worry. He demonstated handlers listening abilities and suggested that trainers can get sucked into believing that they are doing stuff correctly. He told us a devastating story of his own class. We all know this, we all get frustrated sometimes but if people can get things wrong with a simple excercise they can mess up an e collar and do a lot more damage. He didn't dwell on it as he simply got agreement, he moved on quickly from any area he could see 'noddies'

He may have talked about aids in the Sydney seminar a bit more. He is open to discussion with trainers, send him an email to get his thoughts, he will tell you. I have a lot to think about from the seminar and so far have been incredibly busy so not had time for discussion with other trainers.

I will today, all organised and a lot needs talking about.

He really was saying that if training started in the whelping box behaviour problems would not happen and aids not needed. I was a bit upset about his breed opinions, he feels that ACD should be socialised in uterus as they are the worst biters, that bite inhibition should be started at birth. I got the impression he didn't like them but I was probably wrong, he was simply trying to get the message out there.

His view is that if you want a pup for a family home, buy a pup from a family home. He thinks pups should be raised inside, with the family and all the sights and sounds of a normal domestic environment. I'd be delighted to buy a pup raised in the manner he describes. Look how many posts we get right here on DOL from new puppy owners struggling with toilet training for a start.

yes!

This is the number one problem of all new puppy owners.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

He may have talked about aids in the Sydney seminar a bit more.

Only to say that aids are aids to training and should not become a crutch. He did mention being invited to speak at a conference of e-collar trainers in the US, and talked about helping out a check chain training class. He also gave a plan for using a halti that involved phasing the halti out.

My impression is that his goal is to lessen people's reliance on tools beyond the initial training phase, particularly those tools which can be misused. My take was that he was interested in being pragmatic about religious wars if there is an opportunity to benefit the dogs.

He did not mention anything about countenancing the use of e-collars, but it didn't really come up in discussion. Most of the recall work he ran through was to do with voice based distance control and no-one asked about e-collars.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I can remember hearing his thoughts on having pups toilet trained by the time they go to new homes and thought it was a bit much, but now I think of it I personally do know people who have bought (and bred) pups that are 90% house trained by the time they leave the breeders so I have no doubt that it can be done. Puppies do want to be clean and I guess if that is ignored between 5 - 8 weeks of age then you are behind the 8 ball.

I went to the seminar a couple of years back by Kelly Gorman and LOVED her open paw program, she nearly had us in tears describing how troubled some shelter dogs are when they arrive at the shelter and have to 'unlearn' their toilet training, and how it does not have to be this way.

I can only think that hundreds more TRAINED dogs could be adopted from shelters instead of going into black bags by using the open paw system and I can't fathom why it isn't adopted here yet. Happy to be corrected about that- I'd love to hear that it is!

Mel.

[Just Midol]

met and been handled by at least 100 people to have met cats and other adult dogs/horses/sheep chickens or whatever.

That this socialisations continues for the rest of their lives. He is big on bite inhibition

I hope that never catches on. I wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who does that.

From what I've read from him he seems to be a "my way or the highway" type of trainer, he is right, everyone else who disagrees with him is wrong with no shades of grey.

Keep reading then Midol. That's not what he's like at all. He's got a healthy ego and strong opinons but he's got years of experience and seeing him chat to trainers, I think an open mind also. I bet you'd be surprised to learn he's not totally against e-collars for example. That's something a lot of people dont' know about him but he is talking about using them aversively only for certain types of behaviour modification.

Being a vet, and dealing with problem dogs, his focus is on giving dogs the best start in life to prevent training and behavioural issues.

Personally I think some of his ideas are very good. His view is that if you want a pup for a family home, buy a pup from a family home. He thinks pups should be raised inside, with the family and all the sights and sounds of a normal domestic environment. I'd be delighted to buy a pup raised in the manner he describes. Look how many posts we get right here on DOL from new puppy owners struggling with toilet training for a start.

I heartilyagree with him on his puppy raising views and there are studies that support his views also.

There are studies that support anything and everything.

So he is not totally against e-collars, but there are only 1 or 2 people who know how to use them correctly. Let me guess, he knows how to use them correctly doesn't he?

Sorry, he comes off as closed minded and believes if he wouldn't do it, then the method is wrong. The fact he is a vet means nothing to me, I no longer consider being a "vet" as a plus when it comes to dog training & behavioural work. It's a neutral attribute and if anything, the only vets I've seen talk use it as a way to make them seem more credible than those without a degree.

Regardless, I'd read his books and watch his DVDs. He obviously knows something even if he does seem to oppose any technique that he doesn't personally use & appears to be pretentious. That could just be the way people speak about him though, rather than how he actually is.

If he is talking about (he himself) using them or advocating them he might find himself kicked off the APDT membership though

I doubt that very much.

He knew he was speaking to positive trainers in WA. He said exactly what the op said. There may be a place for an e collar but so far he has only met one or two people who need or know how to use them. The pet owner who visits a trainer for a single session or buys one online is a worry.

I think that's a load of crap as well. E-collars aren't hard to use. I learnt mine via one session and my dogs are perfectly fine. If you understand the theory & can read your dog then it's not very hard to put into practice.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Just Midol

[piper]

The quadrants are hardly difficult to understand.

If you can't understand them, perhaps it would be a wise idea to rehome your dog.

My parents have had dogs all of my life. All of them have been well trained, suitable for being of lead with a reliable recall and great dogs to live with. Do they understand the quadrants - no, guess they should never have had dogs for the last 40 years then. Some people just do things "cos they work" with no understanding of why, doesn't necessarily make them a bad owner.

On the other hand I know quite afew people that know the quadrants very well and go on and on about them but would I want them near my dogs. Hell no, not if the way their own dogs are trained is an example of how they put their knowledge of quadrants to use!

[Just Midol]

The quadrants are hardly difficult to understand.

If you can't understand them, perhaps it would be a wise idea to rehome your dog.

My parents have had dogs all of my life. All of them have been well trained, suitable for being of lead with a reliable recall and great dogs to live with. Do they understand the quadrants - no, guess they should never have had dogs for the last 40 years then. Some people just do things "cos they work" with no understanding of why, doesn't necessarily make them a bad owner.

On the other hand I know quite afew people that know the quadrants very well and go on and on about them but would I want them near my dogs. Hell no, not if the way their own dogs are trained is an example of how they put their knowledge of quadrants to use!

Good job for reading the entire thread, because I didn't mention trainers once, not ever.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I can remember hearing his thoughts on having pups toilet trained by the time they go to new homes and thought it was a bit much, but now I think of it I personally do know people who have bought (and bred) pups that are 90% house trained by the time they leave the breeders so I have no doubt that it can be done. Puppies do want to be clean and I guess if that is ignored between 5 - 8 weeks of age then you are behind the 8 ball.

Our latest addition came from a breeder who has been in the game a long time and this pup was 90 per cent there with house training by the time she got to us at 10 weeks. The pup also already had a rock solid sit.

[piper]

Good job for reading the entire thread, because I didn't mention trainers once, not ever.

And here was I about to come back and do a nice polite edit after I got a chance to read the next page.

[corvus]

some behaviours cannot be modified without the use of aversives.

Now that kind of attitude is self-fulfilling. Surely anything is possible with infinite time and patience? I think it's rather a matter of some behaviours are not practical to modify without the use of aversives.

The thing about the quadrants is that half the time even when speaking to other people who know the short hand there is confusion for the reason I mentioned earlier. It's a matter of forcing a continuum into discrete boxes. And whether a dog is changing his behaviour because he's trying to avoid something or because he wants something is, I reckon, a matter of perspective sometimes. I got no patience for something designed to communicate with other knowledgeble people when it fails at doing just that rather frequently. At least when I said "gentes" to cuckoo people there was never any confusion as to just what degree of gentes I was talking about, although degrees of host mimicry certainly occur. They are just not important to the central concept.

Yep, the quadrants are a concept, but not a training concept.

Sorry, quadrant rant over.

E-collars aren't hard to use. I learnt mine via one session and my dogs are perfectly fine. If you understand the theory & can read your dog then it's not very hard to put into practice.

Sure Midol, but how many people can actually read their dogs very well? I could count the number I've met in person on one hand. I thought I could read dogs pretty well. Then I spent months on end trying to find bird nests. Then I met a hare. Suddenly I realised how woefully little attention I paid to my dog's hundreds of signals because it just plum didn't matter when she did what she was told and still appeared to adore me. Nothing like an animal that communicates a lot less clearly than a dog to make you appreciate what you have been missing.

[Cosmolo]

S+T what is the open paws system? I might be able to tell you if something similar exists here or not if i know what it entails!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Sure Midol, but how many people can actually read their dogs very well? I could count the number I've met in person on one hand.

I think it's like being a good driver. Most people think they are, yet find themselves surrounded by idiots on the road.

[Staff'n'Toller]

From Open Paw website

Minimum Mental Health Requirements For Dogs:

• A comfortable bed or den

• At least three daily opportunities to use a dog toilet area (outside of their kennel) and be rewarded for using it

• Sufficient entertainment (environmental enrichment or occupational therapy) including stuffed chew toys, such as Kongs or Big Kahunas

• Hand feeding, with any leftover food stuffed in chew toys, i.e., no feeding from bowls

• Interaction with at least 20 people each day, including at least 5 unfamiliar people

• Handling and grooming by at least 3 people a day, including 1 unfamiliar person

• Daily education (basic manners training) and mental stimulation (walk)

• Quiet kennel "downtime" each day (scheduled breaks from the public)

• At least 20 minutes out of their kennel run each day, used either for training, socialization, playtime, exercise or "downtime" in somebody’s office

• Canine companionship: once your shelter is implementing the other Minimum Mental Health Requirements regularly and reliably, you may want to begin to incorporate weekly, 20-minute play/train sessions between dogs.

• Puppies less than 4 months old must be housed together in a self-training, long-term confinement area, with constant access to a puppy toilet area, and fed only by hand (during classical conditioning and training) or from stuffed chew toys (i.e., no feeding from bowls). Puppies require daily handling, grooming, and manners training by at least 5 unfamiliar people. Puppies should be home fostered whenever possible.

Nb: The hand feeding involves a tiered obedience system so that volunteers and staff know exactly which level each dog is up to at any point in time and what behaviours they should be asking for every single time they interact with each dog. Issues such as jumping and sitting for a lead to be put on are fixed very quickly because every single person interacting with that dog must take some of the dogs' daily ration into the pen and ask for correct behaviours.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Staff'n'Toller

[Cosmolo]

Thats part of my dreams S+T Its a long way off- but baby steps i keep telling myself. Its hard to change what someone has been doing for many years- so whirlwind revolutions don't happen unfortunately

[Staff'n'Toller]

Thats part of my dreams S+T Its a long way off- but baby steps i keep telling myself. Its hard to change what someone has been doing for many years- so whirlwind revolutions don't happen unfortunately

Yep, pretty hard to change personalities, it's soooo sad that it's obviously working well in the US.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Now that kind of attitude is self-fulfilling. Surely anything is possible with infinite time and patience? I think it's rather a matter of some behaviours are not practical to modify without the use of aversives.

Really? How would you propose to stop a dog performing a highly self rewarding behaviour like stock or wildlife chasing without the use of aversives? I'm not talking about simply managing it but actually eliminating the desire to do it.

I've heard the PP trainers tell people that the handler simply has to make the dog returning to the handler "more rewarding" than the chasing. Lots of luck I say.

I don't think it's any coincidence that many of the behaviours people find the hardest to modify in their dogs are self rewarding ones, do you?

Edited February 4, 2009 by poodlefan

[Rusky]

So he is not totally against e-collars, but there are only 1 or 2 people who know how to use them correctly. Let me guess, he knows how to use them correctly doesn't he?

so you must be the other one midol