corvus Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 But it isn't epecially intuitive. I mean, P+?? Sounds like positive punishment. I really do hate jargon. Anything as ostensibly simple as the quadrants that takes more than 5 seconds to explain had better be so specialised there is no way to sum it up in a few words. I spent a year explaining cuckoos and gentes to every person I crossed paths with and it got really boring and tedious after a while, but unfortunately cuckoo gentes are a pretty complicated concept so if you are going to talk about it you need a few quick words to sum up those concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Would that be the same as.... if you lose a dog you should not own another dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) But it isn't epecially intuitive. I mean, P+?? Sounds like positive punishment.I really do hate jargon. Anything as ostensibly simple as the quadrants that takes more than 5 seconds to explain had better be so specialised there is no way to sum it up in a few words. I spent a year explaining cuckoos and gentes to every person I crossed paths with and it got really boring and tedious after a while, but unfortunately cuckoo gentes are a pretty complicated concept so if you are going to talk about it you need a few quick words to sum up those concepts. 5 seconds? You seriously expect training theories to be summarised in 5 seconds. It takes more than 5 seconds to explain luring and luring is one of the most basic things you can do... The 4 quadrants are incredibly intuitive, I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with them. If you passed grade 5 english and maths you should be able to figure it out incredibly quickly. Again, two words. If your intelligence level is so low that the meaning of two words confuse you then dog training isn't for you. Would that be the same as.... if you lose a dog you should not own another dog. Your entitled to your belief but entirely irrelevant in this thread. Edited February 3, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 My point Midol is your quick to presume and have a go at people who do not quickly pick up quadrants and treat them like they are stupid and that you worry about them. Please give us your understanding of quadrants. Instead of meaningless comments like you are making. That is why I made my meaningless comment. After all if someone is a zoologist I am guessing you have no where near the qualifications they have in animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 My point Midol is your quick to presume and have a go at people who do not quickly pick up quadrants and treat them like they are stupid and that you worry about them. I don't expect them to pick it up quickly, but to dismiss them as "too hard" is ridiculous. If someone doesn't get it after repeated explanations then clearly DT is not for them. Please give us your understanding of quadrants. Instead of meaningless comments like you are making. That is why I made my meaningless comment. After all if someone is a zoologist I am guessing you have no where near the qualifications they have in animals. A degree in zooloogy is about as relevant as a degree in accounting is when it comes to training dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 5 seconds? You seriously expect training theories to be summarised in 5 seconds.It takes more than 5 seconds to explain luring and luring is one of the most basic things you can do... The 4 quadrants are incredibly intuitive, I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with them. If you passed grade 5 english and maths you should be able to figure it out incredibly quickly. Again, two words. If your intelligence level is so low that the meaning of two words confuse you then dog training isn't for you. Ever taught an obedience class Midol? People have trouble with the concept of taking two steps instead of 5. These people have dogs whether you or I approve or not. If you care about dogs, you try and make it as simple as possible so they get it. The way I do it is to talk about "good stuff for dogs" and "bad stuff for dogs". Doesn't make me sound like an impressive trainer, but people get it if I talk that way. Ask your average punter to explain the quadrant and they'd be lost. Most struggle with "let your dog know when he's done the right thing". I'm not being rude about them either, not being a jargon geek is not a crime. At least they are showing up to class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 People have trouble with the concept of taking two steps instead of 5. Left and right turns can be a bit of an issue too. I think this thread is rapidly proving what Dr Dunbar says about training method arguments being pointless. While there may be a lot of discussion, I think it rarely changes anyone's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 5 seconds? You seriously expect training theories to be summarised in 5 seconds.It takes more than 5 seconds to explain luring and luring is one of the most basic things you can do... The 4 quadrants are incredibly intuitive, I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with them. If you passed grade 5 english and maths you should be able to figure it out incredibly quickly. Again, two words. If your intelligence level is so low that the meaning of two words confuse you then dog training isn't for you. Ever taught an obedience class Midol? Why would you need to explain it to someone at an obedience class? Why would they care? People have trouble with the concept of taking two steps instead of 5. These people have dogs whether you or I approve or not. If you care about dogs, you try and make it as simple as possible so they get it. The way I do it is to talk about "good stuff for dogs" and "bad stuff for dogs". Doesn't make me sound like an impressive trainer, but people get it if I talk that way. Ask your average punter to explain the quadrant and they'd be lost. Most struggle with "let your dog know when he's done the right thing". - He's anti using the quadrant and thinks that dogs read things in a more binary way - ie, it's either good for dogs or bad for dogs. His criticism of the quadrant was that it doesn't make intuitive sense, and that it's confusing for new people and fodder for pointless trainer arguments. That applies to both trainers and new dog owners. I am only commenting on the trainer side. If a dog TRAINER can not grasp the quadrants then they shouldn't be training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Midol I am at a loss to your last post Kavik did not claim she was a dog trainer and neither did Corvus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Why would you need to explain it to someone at an obedience class? Why would they care? Good question Midol, you said this: The 4 quadrants are incredibly intuitive, I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with them. If you passed grade 5 english and maths you should be able to figure it out incredibly quickly. Again, two words. If your intelligence level is so low that the meaning of two words confuse you then dog training isn't for you. Now you say this: I am only commenting on the trainer side. If a dog TRAINER can not grasp the quadrants then they shouldn't be training. Bit late to make that distinction I think, but I don't think anyone suggested that trainers don't get it - they suggested that it's confusing for new people and that trainers waste time arguing about it. The arguments are usually about what activity fits where, but I've noted you often decide people don't understand when they simply disagree so perhaps your conclusion is not surprising. As usual, Poodlefan has nailed what is really going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) If I had a dollar for every time I looked at a training thread and noticed a complete misunderstanding and misuse of the terms used in the 'quadrant', then I sure as heck wouldn't be renting Edited February 3, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I went to his seminar a few years back at Seaworld on the Gold Coast. Have always wanted to go back and do it again. Anyone here been to one of his seminars previously and then went to his recent one?? Much different?? I found his seminar rather informative and very easy to understand and follow. Much also made sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Anita, anywhere we can find links to the sort of things you are talking about that were mentioned at his seminars, I know nothing about him at all? Cheers The website is www.dogstardaily.com I haven't looked at it in detail, but I think he has a blog on it. There is a DVD called "Give them a scalpel and they will dissect a kiss" which covers some of what I have relayed back here. He has quite a bit of published material, and indicated they were going to do limited free downloads over the next 6 months. Might be an idea to keep tabs on the website for a bit. The two puppy books are available for free download at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Oh, I see Midol, you're talking only about TRAINERS all of a sudden. The quadrant itself is not a training concept. It's just a way of explaining the way operative conditioning works. I honestly think OC could be explained in 5 seconds by saying "An animal will work to make good things happen and bad things stop happening" and that is something anyone can understand (I assume) and it doesn't require jargon that doesn't make instant intuitive sense. The way "good things" and "bad things" happening teach a dog is where the quadrant comes in, and that, imho, is not something even a trainer really needs to know to be an effective trainer. I bet plenty don't. Or more to the point, I bet plenty do and just don't use the special terms of the quadrant to organise and pigeon-hole everything just so. As we have seen, the terms in the quadrant might have been invented to define what is meant by "reward" and "punishment' and the two ways they can each be applied to change behaviour, but these things exist on a continuum, not in discrete little holes, so we all still end up arguing about what exactly we mean. I have consistently encountered confusion over whether punishments are punishments if they don't ultimately extinguish behaviour and whether they are punishments if the behaviour is still expressed consistently at slightly lower levels that before, and whether it is still a punishment if the behaviour decreases but then increases and still remains a valid option at any time and whether something is R- or P+ or whether it's P- or P+ or if it even exists in the quadrant at all and so on and so on. I don't like the box. I like to think I'm not quite as arrogant as to think just because some of us get it than it's easy and everyone should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) It's ... a way of explaining the way operative conditioning works. I agree - IMO also, its use is so that it can be used in conversation without having to go into bucket loads of explanation each time. Although for the efficiency of this to occur, both the speaker and the listner (or writer and reader, as the case may be) has to know and understand the quadrant. For this reason, I disagree with Ian Dunbar. However, if he means that he is anti-talking quadrant with/to the basic novice person/client who just wants to train their own dog and doesn't need to converse in the 'science' of it, then I agree. I don't go around explaining P+, P-, R- to my clients. Although they readily understand R+ (knowing it as simply "reinforcement") most of the time, even if they don't understand the timing or application of it. Knowing the quadrants, and others knowing/understanding the quadrants, makes it easier to explain to someone who also understands it, how to use training tools, for example. You can more easily tell someone you (eg) use a head collar in 'this particular' instance using R-. Or you use an e-collar utilising R-. Or in some special instances, as P+. Makes for much more condensed transfer of information. I understood the point Midol was making. I honestly think OC could be explained in 5 seconds by saying "An animal will work to make good things happen and bad things stop happening" But that doesn't separate the different ways both punishment and reinforcement can be used. But I agree, if you don't understand it and don't need to the world doesn't stop turning. It's just that it is handy and can make a clearer distinction when thinking about what you're doing and why or more particularly how it is working (or not). Edited February 3, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Oh, I see Midol, you're talking only about TRAINERS all of a sudden. No, I was talking about trainers the entire time. I apologise for not making that clear. When it comes to a person not interested in the concepts (and I still think the quadrants are a concept) then tell them it however you want as long as it gets the point across, but I'd expect every trainer to understand them. Edited February 3, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The leash walking one for adult dogs I will try and if it works I'll start suggesting it. Basically you have your dog on a leash and wait for it to sit. When it does you take a step and wait for it to sit again. Then when that is reliable, two steps, then three, etc etc. The idea is that the dog doesn't forge because it's more inclined to pay attention to what the crazy human is doing because they keep stopping. It seems to flip the "be a tree" method into reverse. No idea if I can get it to work yet! I am trying this with my pup. Works great in the backyard and on the way out the door... until we get out the gate lol. He is sitting now as soon as the lead comes out so will keep trying. I guess the hot weather isn't helping either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I attended the Perth 3 day seminar What Ian Dunbar said to us re the quadrants is this If trainers spent as much time helping people to train their dogs as they do discussing the quadrants on public forums we might have better informed owners. He is a very entertaining speaker, he is not travelling so much and will not visit Australia for seminars but will visit to see some of the country. There are heaps of free videos and also free book downloads on his dogstar daily site. http://www.dogstardaily.com/ He doesn't like any training device apart from a flat collar and a lead. He says every dog should have a kong and it is really our responsibility as trainers to try and make a mark on puppy socialisation. He is not popular with breeders. He believes every puppy should be potty trained, know how to do all basic commands by the age of 8 weeks and have met and been handled by at least 100 people to have met cats and other adult dogs/horses/sheep chickens or whatever. That this socialisations continues for the rest of their lives. He is big on bite inhibition and has some very interesting methods of desensitisation. All his books and DVDs are available on the web site. He met a chap at the airport who had just got or was just getting a puppy, he told him to buy a kong and download before and after you get a puppy from the website. He said these are the two best pieces of information any of us can give to a new puppy owner. He has a shelter now in his hometown. I loved his ideas for shelter dogs and I am sure that the many people from rescue who attended the seminar will have already or will be in the process of implementing his simple effective ideas. He has a book almost ready for press to assist in the education, training and activity of shelter dogs. Ian Dunbar has never been PP, he has always been just Ian Dunbar. He does not punish dogs, he sees no point in punishment. His demo is a little hard to explain but he talks constantly to a dog to praise and to advise that the puppy/dog is or is not doing the right thing. I loved his 'bully' puppy in a baby class demo. He uses a lot of 'choose to heel 'for adult dogs. His loose leash/heel demo was very good. I used it in class last night. He uses a lot of shaping behaviour and the loose leash is a mix of baby steps. choose to heel and perfectly timed rewards. He uses heaps of food when training any new move, for lure and for reward. The lure goes very quickly, the food reward can be substituted for anything which the dog enjoys. Ian Dunbar is the father of reward based training. He held the very first puppy classes anywhere in the world. His observations of dogs during his career as a vet and animal behaviourist and later as a trainer are absolutley fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) met and been handled by at least 100 people to have met cats and other adult dogs/horses/sheep chickens or whatever. That this socialisations continues for the rest of their lives. He is big on bite inhibition I hope that never catches on. I wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who does that. From what I've read from him he seems to be a "my way or the highway" type of trainer, he is right, everyone else who disagrees with him is wrong with no shades of grey. Edited February 3, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 From what I've read from him he seems to be a "my way or the highway" type of trainer, he is right, everyone else who disagrees with him is wrong with no shades of grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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