Rusky Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I do not do lead training, or fully potty training. They get little collars at 6-7 weeks before they go to get used to them. They are also given a secure kennel area during the day where there is a sleeping area and grass to do business. I have found this helps with natural progression on potty training. Not foolproof of course. Accidents DO happen. However, I have had puppies from other breeders who have had the run of the house and have learnt that it is acceptable to pee and poop anywhere and everywhere. There is a noticable difference. the area with grass was exactly what he was talking about, he suggested sand too which makes sense here as we have a lot of sand in gardens. I have a mate who is a breeder and when anyone visits the kennels ( they board too) they are asked to play with the puppies in fact it is more like a command He has a safe massive boxed area and whenever I go there are always and I mean always children in the box playing with the pups. He picks a couple out and hands them to the adults for cuddles. I love going there. He doesn't do basic commands on purpose, it just happens as part of raising a pup to a new home. All the pups rae crate trained too, they all go to their new home with a crate. This was something else Ian Dunbar was big on...crate training a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 thought it was interesting though, mainly because I guess most people wouldn't think of a regular leash as a "tool" or "crutch"....... Yeah, I've never really thought of it as a tool but really it is one. Though I'm different in that I don't think using tools is a bad idea, even when they aren't phased out. Like with prongs, some dogs become collar smart regardless of what you do and will only not pull when it's on - no big deal. At least they can walk the dog even if they do have to use the prong every time. It's like when using rewards, rewards are NEVER phased out yet there is this huge expectation for people to phase out aversives. Ian had this idea (don't know of it was mentioned at the Sydney seminar) whereby you put the "tool" (halti, prong, whatever....) on the dog but don't connect it.....connect the leash to a flat leather collar and use that for a week. week 2, you put an odour on the collar ( he used saddle soap as an example) and then connect the tool, so that it can be used, so the dog in theory pairs the fact it is being corrected by the tool, with the odour, as the odour appeared in conjunction with the correction. Week 3, you phase out the use of the tool, but keep the saddle soap on the collar, and if the dog has made the connection between the two....hey presto. I think this is the simplified version of it....but I found it an interesting concept & wonder if it would work. I would like to give it a go though. I think food rewards should be phased out eventually......but did you mean verbal rewards also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) thought it was interesting though, mainly because I guess most people wouldn't think of a regular leash as a "tool" or "crutch"....... Yeah, I've never really thought of it as a tool but really it is one. Though I'm different in that I don't think using tools is a bad idea, even when they aren't phased out. Like with prongs, some dogs become collar smart regardless of what you do and will only not pull when it's on - no big deal. At least they can walk the dog even if they do have to use the prong every time. It's like when using rewards, rewards are NEVER phased out yet there is this huge expectation for people to phase out aversives. Ian had this idea (don't know of it was mentioned at the Sydney seminar) whereby you put the "tool" (halti, prong, whatever....) on the dog but don't connect it.....connect the leash to a flat leather collar and use that for a week. week 2, you put an odour on the collar ( he used saddle soap as an example) and then connect the tool, so that it can be used, so the dog in theory pairs the fact it is being corrected by the tool, with the odour, as the odour appeared in conjunction with the correction. Week 3, you phase out the use of the tool, but keep the saddle soap on the collar, and if the dog has made the connection between the two....hey presto. I think this is the simplified version of it....but I found it an interesting concept & wonder if it would work. I would like to give it a go though. I think food rewards should be phased out eventually......but did you mean verbal rewards also? If you phase out rewards entirely, then the dog will eventually stop listening. It won't take long before the dog realises he isn't getting anything for what he does. Verbal rewards are useless if your dog doesn't want them. To me, what you just described is using a tool. Just a different type of tool. What's the difference between a dog connecting the correction to a prong or a piece of soap? Or the prong to an odour? I don't really see a difference. Edited February 5, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 To me, what you just described is using a tool. Just a different type of tool. What's the difference between a dog connecting the correction to a prong or a piece of soap? Or the prong to an odour? I don't really see a difference. You have asked me similar detailed questions but neither Willow nor myself are Ian Dunbar. Our reflection of what was said comes through the filter of our own experience with our own dogs. For example, your question about what it acheives knowing what the dog is capable of off-leash. There are reasons why I might find that useful, but if you are training a recall with aversives, I don't have anything to contribute because I don't train that way. Perhaps the e-collar training body in the US that heard him speak has a transcript you could read if you email and ask them. I don't know who they are but I'm sure Erny could identify the group as it is the largest e-collar training association in the US. In any case, I suggest you go back to the source material on his website and do some reading and exploring with your own dogs. If it works for you great, if not, oh well. I'm not going to put energy into convincing you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 thought it was interesting though, mainly because I guess most people wouldn't think of a regular leash as a "tool" or "crutch"....... Yeah, I've never really thought of it as a tool but really it is one. Though I'm different in that I don't think using tools is a bad idea, even when they aren't phased out. Like with prongs, some dogs become collar smart regardless of what you do and will only not pull when it's on - no big deal. At least they can walk the dog even if they do have to use the prong every time. It's like when using rewards, rewards are NEVER phased out yet there is this huge expectation for people to phase out aversives. Ian had this idea (don't know of it was mentioned at the Sydney seminar) whereby you put the "tool" (halti, prong, whatever....) on the dog but don't connect it.....connect the leash to a flat leather collar and use that for a week. week 2, you put an odour on the collar ( he used saddle soap as an example) and then connect the tool, so that it can be used, so the dog in theory pairs the fact it is being corrected by the tool, with the odour, as the odour appeared in conjunction with the correction. Week 3, you phase out the use of the tool, but keep the saddle soap on the collar, and if the dog has made the connection between the two....hey presto. I think this is the simplified version of it....but I found it an interesting concept & wonder if it would work. I would like to give it a go though. I think food rewards should be phased out eventually......but did you mean verbal rewards also? If you phase out rewards entirely, then the dog will eventually stop listening. It won't take long before the dog realises he isn't getting anything for what he does. Verbal rewards are useless if your dog doesn't want them. To me, what you just described is using a tool. Just a different type of tool. What's the difference between a dog connecting the correction to a prong or a piece of soap? Or the prong to an odour? I don't really see a difference. Go and ask Ian, not me....this is his theory I'm talking about, not mine.....I merely said I found it interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Verbal rewards are useless if your dog doesn't want them you need to link food with verbal and physical praise...was you I think who was talking about operant conditioning. Every praise should mean something to the dog. I had forgotten the saddle soap thing from the seminar ( it is in my notes though, I just found it)but one thing I found very interesting was the dogs being taught the gruff male voice praise. I have already started doing this with our own dog...husband..not me and have discussed it a lot with anyone who will listen. I use other stuff to link food...verbal praise like sqeaky toys and clickers but I loved the gruff voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) Ian had this idea (don't know of it was mentioned at the Sydney seminar) whereby you put the "tool" (halti, prong, whatever....) on the dog but don't connect it.....connect the leash to a flat leather collar and use that for a week.week 2, you put an odour on the collar ( he used saddle soap as an example) and then connect the tool, so that it can be used, so the dog in theory pairs the fact it is being corrected by the tool, with the odour, as the odour appeared in conjunction with the correction. Week 3, you phase out the use of the tool, but keep the saddle soap on the collar, and if the dog has made the connection between the two....hey presto. Perhaps I'm not understanding this, but if you pair the correction with the odour and then keep the odour on the dog's normal flat collar, then the dog would (assuming the pairing is complete) assume it is being corrected no matter what behaviour it is showing, even if it is a good behaviour. Edited February 5, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 That's what I was thinking too Erny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) ...thought it was interesting though, mainly because I guess most people wouldn't think of a regular leash as a "tool" or "crutch"....... I agree with him on this. I am often explaining/pointing out to my clients that their lead is merely an extension of whatever tool it is attached to; that it is something with which to transfer information to the dog and secondly that the owner can become even more reliant on the lead than dogs. Edited February 5, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) Ian had this idea (don't know of it was mentioned at the Sydney seminar) whereby you put the "tool" (halti, prong, whatever....) on the dog but don't connect it.....connect the leash to a flat leather collar and use that for a week.week 2, you put an odour on the collar ( he used saddle soap as an example) and then connect the tool, so that it can be used, so the dog in theory pairs the fact it is being corrected by the tool, with the odour, as the odour appeared in conjunction with the correction. Week 3, you phase out the use of the tool, but keep the saddle soap on the collar, and if the dog has made the connection between the two....hey presto. Perhaps I'm not understanding this, but if you pair the correction with the odour and then keep the odour on the dog's normal flat collar, then the dog would (assuming the pairing is complete) assume it is being corrected no matter what behaviour it is showing, even if it is a good behaviour. Maybe an email to Ian would do the trick, then he can clarify what he means. ETA: my understanding is the dog associates the scent with not being allowed to pull (for example) and thinks it's the smell that stops him pulling when he forges ahead, not the tool in use at the time. So thinks..."ok, when I smell this smell, there is no point pulling because I can't" I think that's the way he explained his theory.... Edited February 5, 2009 by Willow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yeah - I getcha, but if you have interpreted it properly, I still think it is wrong and I'd caution anyone about doing it. Because the odour is still going to be there when the dog isn't pulling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yeah - I getcha, but if you have interpreted it properly, I still think it is wrong and I'd caution anyone about doing it. Because the odour is still going to be there when the dog isn't pulling. Perhaps the trick would be to use an odour the dog doesn't find offensive or attractive so that it is just a signal? No idea how you would go about determining that tho'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If the odour is paired with a correction, then that's what the dog would perceive the odour as ..... something negative. So I just don't see it. Won't be using that method myself though, the way I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I came across this video link on another forum. For those who haven't heard Ian Dunbar speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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