Dunbar Seminar Report

[Erny]

Midol .... the words were that he (Ian) has only MET one or two people who know how to use them, not that there are ONLY 1 or 2 people ....

Ya gotta be careful about reading things properly and not twisting them around.

[Just Midol]

Good job for reading the entire thread, because I didn't mention trainers once, not ever.

And here was I about to come back and do a nice polite edit after I got a chance to read the next page.

If you click "quote" you can go to the next page and it remembers the quote selection. That way you can hit the quote buttons on all the posts you feel like replying to as you browse the full thread, doing this means you'll be able to read the entire thread before responding.

Sure Midol, but how many people can actually read their dogs very well? I could count the number I've met in person on one hand.

I think it's like being a good driver. Most people think they are, yet find themselves surrounded by idiots on the road.

You've summed up how I feel exactly! So many idiot drivers around me

I think I'm a good at implementing the things I know in training, but I know very little so there isn't a lot I can implement

So he is not totally against e-collars, but there are only 1 or 2 people who know how to use them correctly. Let me guess, he knows how to use them correctly doesn't he?

so you must be the other one midol

Bingo!

Or there are a couple thousand... I've interacted with heaps of them on an e-collar discussion group on Yahoo. They all seem pretty cluey. Many of them probably know more about the e-collar than Ian does.

Midol .... the words were that he (Ian) has only MET one or two people who know how to use them, not that there are ONLY 1 or 2 people ....

Ya gotta be careful about reading things properly and not twisting them around.

Dammit. The way I read it was more fun Though if he has only met one or two people who know how to use them then he must not interact with other trainers.

I wish I had have known of his seminar, I'd have enjoyed it once I ignored the "I'm right" bits. It couldn't possibly be worse than the 12 hours of lower house debate I listened to overnight

[corvus]

Corvus:

Now that kind of attitude is self-fulfilling. Surely anything is possible with infinite time and patience? I think it's rather a matter of some behaviours are not practical to modify without the use of aversives.

Really? How would you propose to stop a dog performing a highly self rewarding behaviour like stock or wildlife chasing without the use of aversives? I'm not talking about simply managing it but actually eliminating the desire to do it.

I've heard the PP trainers tell people that the handler simply has to make the dog returning to the handler "more rewarding" than the chasing. Lots of luck I say.

I don't think it's any coincidence that many of the behaviours people find the hardest to modify in their dogs are self rewarding ones, do you?

Well, I don't know if it's possible as I've never tried, but you could sit down and spend 12 months conditioning a recall, then tackle it from the other end and start drive training to try to get the dog to come to you for satisfaction instead of running after the wildlife. Some people I know have used chasing wildlife as a reward to call off wildlife. Dog knows they get to chase sometimes if they come back when called. Some people say it works, but I don't know to what extent. I did speak to a fellow called Lee Charles Kelley who taught his dog (a Dalmation if I remember correctly) to run to him for some tug whenever he saw a squirrel. This person fully believes you can teach any dog to do this and is a professional trainer and has used the method with success every time (so he says - he was certainly one to blow his own horn). I think it's at least worth a try, as you are right in that the hardest things to modify are things the dog finds self-rewarding. Thus, rewards work like a charm if you can find the right one.

I'll try it with the next dog I get (which will be something prey driven) and let you know how I go.

[Just Midol]

Yeah, umm, usually if a dog has self rewarded with stock chasing you don't have a few months.

It's either a quick result, or death. There is no inbetween. If the dog is stock chasing it means it can't be contained.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Just Midol

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Well, I don't know if it's possible as I've never tried, but you could sit down and spend 12 months conditioning a recall, then tackle it from the other end and start drive training to try to get the dog to come to you for satisfaction instead of running after the wildlife. Some people I know have used chasing wildlife as a reward to call off wildlife. Dog knows they get to chase sometimes if they come back when called.

This has reminded me that Dunbar talked about something similar, but in the North American context. He said they needed to pick squirrels for training rewards, because squirrels shoot straight up a tree, rather than covering a lot of country so the dog gets to chase as a reward for good behaviour, but doesn't go dashing over the horizon or killing the squirrels.

One thing he was very strong on was quantifying the dog's capabilities in relation to its environment and using that when making judgements about training outdoors. He also made an interesting observation about jogging with his Mal, he'd already worked out what the Mal's sprint and pace capabilities were, and what his were as its human owner, and considered how that would affect judgments he made when free running.

[Just Midol]

One thing he was very strong on was quantifying the dog's capabilities in relation to its environment and using that when making judgements about training outdoors.

Can you expand on this?

[corvus]

Yeah, umm, usually if a dog has self rewarded with stock chasing you don't have a few months.

It's either a quick result, or death. There is no inbetween. If the dog is stock chasing it means it can't be contained.

Well I did say given infinite time and that sometimes it wasn't practical to use no aversives. What I was arguing against was the notion that it simply can't be done.

Can't be contained, though? If a Dingo can be contained surely any dog can be contained.

Surely some dogss would blow right through any aversive you could throw at them to chase something anyway. Isn't that why they say you should never let some breeds off leash? My mother's boxer kelpie cross got out one time and went and chased roos in the bush for a few hours. She came back covered in cuts and scratches and staggering sideways in exhaustion. I don't think all that blood on her made much of an impression on the fun of the chase. Someone with some kind of big pig dog type (Boerboel?) in America was having trouble with him chasing coyotes. He'd dive into the cacti after the coyote and come back with spines and prickles all over his balls! Didn't phase him a bit.

[Benji&Cuddles]

Mums account.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Benji&Cuddles

[Just Midol]

Yeah, umm, usually if a dog has self rewarded with stock chasing you don't have a few months.

It's either a quick result, or death. There is no inbetween. If the dog is stock chasing it means it can't be contained.

Well I did say given infinite time and that sometimes it wasn't practical to use no aversives. What I was arguing against was the notion that it simply can't be done.

Can't be contained, though? If a Dingo can be contained surely any dog can be contained.

Okay, let me put it another way, usually the owners of such dogs either:

a) Simply won't contain it, it might be a farm dog.

b) Can't afford to contain it.

Surely some dogss would blow right through any aversive you could throw at them to chase something anyway. Isn't that why they say you should never let some breeds off leash?

I personally think that's a load of shit, I used to agree with that but I no longer do (and neither of the huskies here recall), all dogs can be taught to recall imo. Sure, if you'll only use positive methods and insist on heavy socialisation then you may not be able to obtain a recall in all dogs... But that's the fault of the method.

Some dogs may run through any adversive if you immediately move to high distractions but I doubt many dogs can withstand a level 127 correction for prolonged periods of time. If it came to it (as in one of my dogs was almost at an animal, or had an animal) then I would inflict a very high level correction on them. It would cause vast amounts of pain, and stress, but if it's the only way to save someones pet or livestock then I'd do it (I wouldn't for say, a wild duck though.)

My mother's boxer kelpie cross got out one time and went and chased roos in the bush for a few hours. She came back covered in cuts and scratches and staggering sideways in exhaustion. I don't think all that blood on her made much of an impression on the fun of the chase. Someone with some kind of big pig dog type (Boerboel?) in America was having trouble with him chasing coyotes. He'd dive into the cacti after the coyote and come back with spines and prickles all over his balls! Didn't phase him a bit.

Problems with the method, not the dogs.

Axle happily ran through barbed wire and got scratches all over his face whilst running for me, but when he 3 shocks from my electric fence (whilst in his "running" drive) he wouldn't go outside for 4 days. Different types of pain in different environments.

I believe all dogs can be trained in basic obedience, the only time breed becomes relevant for me is when entering specialist areas such as police/security/protection work and scent detection where purpose bred dogs will perform far better.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Just Midol

[Mystiqview]

He is not popular with breeders. He believes every puppy should be potty trained, know how to do all basic commands by the age of 8 weeks and have met and been handled by at least 100 people to have met cats and other adult dogs/horses/sheep chickens or whatever.

That this socialisations continues for the rest of their lives. He is big on bite inhibition and has some very interesting methods of desensitisation. All his books and DVDs are available on the web site.

Just reading the comments here I can understand and see why he is not popular with some breeders and dog owners. It has been some time since I have been to his seminar. As I mentioned previously, it was at Seaworld Nara. I believe it was one of his first trips to Oz speaking like this. I really enjoyed his talks. Much just made common sense. He remembered that dogs were dogs and aware that may put human values and ideas onto dogs.

I also see his point about correct socialisation as a young puppy. It is hard to get 100 people or more at the best times to handle an adult dog let alone a puppy. Just the same, I have seen puppies who have had little social contact in those first 8 weeks be scared and timid and not good with other animals. There is a word called moderation .

I have socialised all my puppies before they have gone at 8 weeks of age. Done informatively, carefully and strategicly, it does not detriment the mental and physical health of the puppies. My puppy buyer have all loved the fact that the puppy they take home at 8 weeks is well adjusted to just about everything. My puppies get car rides from about 5 weeks. I just bundle everyone in the car (duel cab ute with cage in the back)... Head down to the local coffee shop and sit on my tailgate with a cup of coffee.. The pups are not touched or handled by anyone. They just sit and play and see the world go by.. Found this great when new owners pick up puppies... they are not S***t scared of the car and travelling.

I do not do lead training, or fully potty training. They get little collars at 6-7 weeks before they go to get used to them. They are also given a secure kennel area during the day where there is a sleeping area and grass to do business. I have found this helps with natural progression on potty training. Not foolproof of course. Accidents DO happen. However, I have had puppies from other breeders who have had the run of the house and have learnt that it is acceptable to pee and poop anywhere and everywhere. There is a noticable difference.

There are key times in a puppy's mental development. A breeder should know when is a good time/phase to introduce new things and how to correctly do it.

Quite often, what is done at the breeder's house affects the personality and mental health of that puppy for the rest of its life.

[Mystiqview]

I used to have a husky that I could have off leash in open areas without her running off... I also know of others who have breeds like huskies that are safe offleash (running away). I live on acerage, and could walk the paddocks without her running away and recall at any time. The husky I had we used to do obediece demos at the Brisbane Royal and Pet Expos with a local obedience club.

I believe it is the dog not the breed. Some are harder to train. You just have to find the right training method FOR THEM.

Its called training, training, and more training. And making you more enjoyable to BE WITH.

[Erny]

Surely some dogss would blow right through any aversive you could throw at them to chase something anyway. Isn't that why they say you should never let some breeds off leash? My mother's boxer kelpie cross got out one time and went and chased roos in the bush for a few hours. She came back covered in cuts and scratches and staggering sideways in exhaustion. I don't think all that blood on her made much of an impression on the fun of the chase. Someone with some kind of big pig dog type (Boerboel?) in America was having trouble with him chasing coyotes. He'd dive into the cacti after the coyote and come back with spines and prickles all over his balls! Didn't phase him a bit.

This boils down to the methodology of training used. Correct methodology coupled with the good use of an e-collar in these instances can and does make all the difference.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

I'll try it with the next dog I get (which will be something prey driven) and let you know how I go.

Good luck on a mob of roos bounding invitingly off. And don't forget to factor in that dogs' brains are functioning differently when in full on prey drive - there are suggestions that they may not even HEAR you call them.

I think the aversives work because they reduce the drive allowing the owner to get the dog's focus off the prey. Unless you can do that, you are in trouble. Clearly the guy that uses tugging is redirecting prey drive but squirrels don't suddenly spring up from nowhere and bound off over the hill like roos do.

[Guest Willow]

My impression is that his goal is to lessen people's reliance on tools beyond the initial training phase, particularly those tools which can be misused.

At the Perth seminar, he mentioned briefly that even a regular leash can be used as a crutch, and it's not a good idea to rely on it....what I understand from that is that while leads area a legal requirement, the dog should be trained to work without it so that if you find yourself without it one day (for whatever reason) you can still maintain control.

He also gave a brief example of a way to phase out the use of either a halti or prong collar within a couple of weeks.....

[Just Midol]

My impression is that his goal is to lessen people's reliance on tools beyond the initial training phase, particularly those tools which can be misused.

At the Perth seminar, he mentioned briefly that even a regular leash can be used as a crutch, and it's not a good idea to rely on it....what I understand from that is that while leads area a legal requirement, the dog should be trained to work without it so that if you find yourself without it one day (for whatever reason) you can still maintain control.

He also gave a brief example of a way to phase out the use of either a halti or prong collar within a couple of weeks.....

Some don't want to phase out the use of their tools though. Though I agree with him, for the average owner phasing out of the training tools is probably a good idea.

I won't ever phase out my e-collar on either the pets or my working dog. I like the fact it has a vibrate which I can use to command the dog to do something (probably a drop) and I always like to have an insurance policy just in case my dog decides that one day, he is going to ignore me. That rabbit at his feet might be inticing.

[poodlefan]

I've seen handlers who can't get an automatic sit when heeling without using the leash as a "handbrake".

Remove the leash and the dog doesn't get the secondary cue.. no sit. Ditto for slight checks on turns.

[Guest Willow]

My impression is that his goal is to lessen people's reliance on tools beyond the initial training phase, particularly those tools which can be misused.

At the Perth seminar, he mentioned briefly that even a regular leash can be used as a crutch, and it's not a good idea to rely on it....what I understand from that is that while leads area a legal requirement, the dog should be trained to work without it so that if you find yourself without it one day (for whatever reason) you can still maintain control.

He also gave a brief example of a way to phase out the use of either a halti or prong collar within a couple of weeks.....

Some don't want to phase out the use of their tools though. Though I agree with him, for the average owner phasing out of the training tools is probably a good idea.

I won't ever phase out my e-collar on either the pets or my working dog. I like the fact it has a vibrate which I can use to command the dog to do something (probably a drop) and I always like to have an insurance policy just in case my dog decides that one day, he is going to ignore me. That rabbit at his feet might be inticing.

thought it was interesting though, mainly because I guess most people wouldn't think of a regular leash as a "tool" or "crutch".......

[Just Midol]

thought it was interesting though, mainly because I guess most people wouldn't think of a regular leash as a "tool" or "crutch".......

Yeah, I've never really thought of it as a tool but really it is one.

Though I'm different in that I don't think using tools is a bad idea, even when they aren't phased out. Like with prongs, some dogs become collar smart regardless of what you do and will only not pull when it's on - no big deal. At least they can walk the dog even if they do have to use the prong every time.

It's like when using rewards, rewards are NEVER phased out yet there is this huge expectation for people to phase out aversives.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Just Midol

[SkySoaringMagpie]

One thing he was very strong on was quantifying the dog's capabilities in relation to its environment and using that when making judgements about training outdoors.

Can you expand on this?

In the Mal example (remember that this is about his Mal, not Mals as a breed) he said that while he knew it could pace all day, it could only sprint 200 yards before getting tired and slowing down a lot. Whereas he knew he could sprint for longer than 200 yards. So that gave him extra information he could use when offleash training that he would not apply to say, being offleash with a greyhound, which could cover a mile really, really fast.

Likewise with the squirrels, he did not say this, but other North American friends have talked about not releasing the dog until they know the squirrel will get away. The calculation will be different for a young Saluki than it would be for an old Corgi.

[Just Midol]

One thing he was very strong on was quantifying the dog's capabilities in relation to its environment and using that when making judgements about training outdoors.

Can you expand on this?

In the Mal example (remember that this is about his Mal, not Mals as a breed) he said that while he knew it could pace all day, it could only sprint 200 yards before getting tired and slowing down a lot. Whereas he knew he could sprint for longer than 200 yards. So that gave him extra information he could use when offleash training that he would not apply to say, being offleash with a greyhound, which could cover a mile really, really fast.

How does that help?

Likewise with the squirrels, he did not say this, but other North American friends have talked about not releasing the dog until they know the squirrel will get away. The calculation will be different for a young Saluki than it would be for an old Corgi.

What if the dog gains satisfaction in the chase, without requiring the capture? If the dog does do it for the capture, and has successfully captured many times before then do you think such a method would gain success in a reasonable amount of time (12 months to me, is not reasonable.)

Edited February 4, 2009 by Just Midol