SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I went to Sydney. The three days covered Aggression, Training Adult Dogs and Training Puppies. I've only written down what was important to me, if I haven't said it, it doesn't mean it wasn't covered. Any errors are mine. Some of the digressions, particularly the one about working out when a bitch is ready to stand, were the best parts for me! That came up in a discussion about teaching bite inhibition to a singleton puppy. - He was very strong on quantification and demonstrated the shorthand he uses to calculate the level of compliance his students are achieving (ie, number of cues before they get compliance). He talked about giving students their "personal bests" as part of getting them to improve. He was critical of classes where improvement wasn't quantified and was critical overall with respect to standards in training. He's pro returning to exams. - He said that with any tool, be it food, halti, e-collar or chain collar, the goal should be to use it as a training tool, and have a plan to phase it out. He was as critical of people who can't get rid of their food pouches as he was of anyone. - He said that techniques need to be achievable by ordinary adults and children, and that trainers should be careful that techniques they demonstrate are accurately achievable by people in their classes. He mentioned that with children, the dog needs to be providing willing and happy compliance. - With respect to fighting, what he said about the pattern of first fights occurring at the age when most owners are dropping off on socialisation made a lot of sense to me, as did the observation that then is the time to intervene heavily and get the owner being proactive instead of hiding the dog away. I had seen the fight bite ratio before, but it was useful to see it again. - He went into detail about their growl classes and the criteria he uses to screen dogs for class work as opposed to private consults. He also spent time talking about how to manage the freaked out owner and about the fact that far more kids are killed by their parents than by dogs. Adult dog day was controversy day! - He's into instructive reprimands. I may try this with our bonehead and see what I think. I have never heard anyone suggest it, it's always been a "don't" in all the classes I've been in and books I've read. I won't suggest it to others until I try it myself. - He's anti using the quadrant and thinks that dogs read things in a more binary way - ie, it's either good for dogs or bad for dogs. His criticism of the quadrant was that it doesn't make intuitive sense, and that it's confusing for new people and fodder for pointless trainer arguments. - He's pro putting the cue before the behaviour when lure reward training. More heresy! I'll give it a shot with stuff I think I have a good lure with, again with my bonehead, and see what I think. - I have lots of other less controversial techniques to try which is great. I am trying not to bombard the dogs with them all at once - Doggie dictionary. I need to write mine down, his questioning people about what their dog's name means was really interesting. - They played a video of a puppy class, and his explanations of which puppies had "red flags" and why was really really useful as was the discussion about how to handle them. Another thing I found useful was the way he suggested using class members who have good dog skills with the iffy puppies, and putting the good puppies with the iffy people. - He is promoting the idea of "Canine Country Clubs" - an ongoing socialisation "club" for dogs that have completed puppy classes to avoid the problems found in open dog parks with unsocialised dogs. - Finally he said that the relationship should be reflected in everything you do, and that if something goes wrong, don't accelerate the process of disintegration by overreacting. The guy is not short of an ego but is much MUCH more old school than I expected from the way people react when they hear his name. He was also quite critical of himself in some of his old videos, and pointed out where he had made mistakes, which is the kind of big ego I can deal with. I'm glad I went, would like to hear impressions from others too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Sounds great. Admitting you have moved on............instead of someone training for 30 years and repeating each year's same mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for taking the time to post. A good reminder to me from the 10th APDT conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Adult dog day was controversy day!- He's into instructive reprimands. I may try this with our bonehead and see what I think. I have never heard anyone suggest it, it's always been a "don't" in all the classes I've been in and books I've read. I won't suggest it to others until I try it myself. - He's pro putting the cue before the behaviour when lure reward training. More heresy! I'll give it a shot with stuff I think I have a good lure with, again with my bonehead, and see what I think. - I have lots of other less controversial techniques to try which is great. I am trying not to bombard the dogs with them all at once - Doggie dictionary. I need to write mine down, his questioning people about what their dog's name means was really interesting. I heard him speak at the APDT Conference in 2007 and was surprised (but pleased) that he was more "old school" than many people's "purely positive" image of him suggests - I got the impression that he was very purely positive at one point, but has evolved since then. I unfortunately wasn't able to make it this year - would you be able to expand on the things I've quoted above? I'm afraid I do not understand what "instructive" reprimands are? Did he say why he is pro to putting the cue before the behaviour when luring? I've been pondering something similar recently (since I dabble in clicker training, I've been taught to get the behaviour first) but have found recently that my target (tin lid) has become my cue and I'm having trouble getting a behaviour on command and am wondering if it would have been different if I started with the command first... but then think, well, if I do that, perhaps my command will be associated with a "less than perfect" form of the behaviour than I want... then I just think I think too much! Care to share his other "less controversial" techniques you're going to try??? Please??? Doggie dictionary??? Are these commands that the dog knows, or is it something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 I unfortunately wasn't able to make it this year - would you be able to expand on the things I've quoted above? I'm afraid I do not understand what "instructive" reprimands are? Say you tell your dog to sit, and it doesn't. You then say "Sit!" in a more serious tone. The idea is not to say "sitsitsitsit", but to give the impression "no really, I mean sit, now" when you give the next command. And to repeat if necessary and get on the dog's case until it complies. He suggested showing the treat at that point but not delivering it until the dog repeats the behaviour again on the first cue. Not something I would try with a behaviour that I did not think the dog knew. Did he say why he is pro to putting the cue before the behaviour when luring? I'm sure he did but I can't find it in my notes! I think it is to do with speed IIRC, when people questioned it he said that if you pick your lure properly, you should get the behaviour you want on the first go. He said that if a dog learns, it learns - it doesn't matter how it learned. You refine by differentially rewarding only the above average attempts. Care to share his other "less controversial" techniques you're going to try??? Please??? The leash walking one for adult dogs I will try and if it works I'll start suggesting it. Basically you have your dog on a leash and wait for it to sit. When it does you take a step and wait for it to sit again. Then when that is reliable, two steps, then three, etc etc. The idea is that the dog doesn't forge because it's more inclined to pay attention to what the crazy human is doing because they keep stopping. It seems to flip the "be a tree" method into reverse. No idea if I can get it to work yet! Doggie dictionary??? Are these commands that the dog knows, or is it something else? It's about really defining what you mean by a cue/the dog's name so that you're clear about your criterion for the behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Many thanks for that - I'm just disappointed that I didn't get to go as I have been led to believe that it might be one of the last times he travels out here, but I could be wrong. You might be interested in his loose lead walking technique is on his website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Many thanks for that - I'm just disappointed that I didn't get to go as I have been led to believe that it might be one of the last times he travels out here, but I could be wrong No problem. Unfortunately he did say it was the last time he is traveling to Australia to give talks. He explained that they had to make a decision about prioritising time spent abroad teaching, and they want to concentrate on those places in the world that they are most needed. In the scheme of things, Australia is pretty well developed when it comes to dog training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for posting Anita - very interesting - I wish I could have gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 No problem. Unfortunately he did say it was the last time he is traveling to Australia to give talks. He explained that they had to make a decision about prioritising time spent abroad teaching, and they want to concentrate on those places in the world that they are most needed. In the scheme of things, Australia is pretty well developed when it comes to dog training. Did he mention what places/countries he was most needed in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 No problem. Unfortunately he did say it was the last time he is traveling to Australia to give talks. He explained that they had to make a decision about prioritising time spent abroad teaching, and they want to concentrate on those places in the world that they are most needed. In the scheme of things, Australia is pretty well developed when it comes to dog training. Did he mention what places/countries he was most needed in? The Asian region is what I remember. He may have mentioned other places as well, just didn't catch them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 (edited) Thanks for that, I'm also disappointed that I couldn't go. From memory at the 07 APDT conference he said he was retiring from travelling & it would be his last time in Aus. The 1 step, 2 step method no pull dog walking was 1st mentioned at his 2000 conference. It's one of the methods that we teach at my obedience club. I can't say if it works because noone seems to put the effort in at home. Did the organisers say anything about producing a DVD of the conference? Edited February 3, 2009 by luvsdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 love the canine country club idea...now to find a council willing to fund it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 love the canine country club idea...now to find a council willing to fund it... The only thing that would worry me about that would be that it would be first step down the American path and that would eventually mean that people who can't afford it would have nowhere to exercise their dogs off leash. I would be more pro councils putting their money into owner education so that existing dog parks became less chaotic. A couple of councils here are getting on that band wagon, my boss has just had several weeks of free training classes with Hanrob instructors I think courtesy of Sydney City Council. Anita, anywhere we can find links to the sort of things you are talking about that were mentioned at his seminars, I know nothing about him at all? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thanks for that, I'm also disappointed that I couldn't go. From memory at the 07 APDT conference he said he was retiring from travelling & it would be his last time in Aus.The 1 step, 2 step method no pull dog walking was 1st mentioned at his 2000 conference. It's one of the methods that we teach at my obedience club. I can't say if it works because noone seems to put the effort in at home. Did the organisers say anything about producing a DVD of the conference? Nothing about a DVD, no. Various people recorded various bits, but I don't know them and don't know what understanding they arrived at with Jenny Ireland and Ian Dunbar. Sounds like there is a chance it might be a Nellie Melba farewell, would be nice for us if so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I do admire Ian Dunbar very much and spent some time with him here many years ago. Wish I could of gone to this last seminar of his here but work got in the way as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Freaky. I don't know that much about Dunbar, but some of these things are what I do. - He's into instructive reprimands. I may try this with our bonehead and see what I think. I have never heard anyone suggest it, it's always been a "don't" in all the classes I've been in and books I've read. I won't suggest it to others until I try it myself. I do this because in my mind, I want my dog to know when I mean business and that when they hear that tone they know inevitably I will get my way if I have to sit there and nag all day. It is one thing OH can get his head around. I suppose you could teach them that every tone means business, but where's the fun in that? Penny is so conditioned to the "business" tone she hustles no matter what she's doing when I tell her to get moving already. I don't use it all the time, though, so it retains its power. I also used the same thing with my hare when he was living in the house. People often say not to nag, but in all honesty, I see nothing wrong with nagging. In my experience, it usually results in the animal giving up early rather than putting up with you pestering them. There is a scientific basis for nagging as well, although I doubt it would sit well with dog trainers. Smaller individuals in the wild can bend bigger individuals to their will by nagging. The bigger individual can't be bothered fighting because fighting is always costly, and so just comes to move away when the little pesky one shows up making noise and displays and whatnot. This is how small individuals hold a territory. If you watch dogs interacting with each other, sometimes you see a dog behaving very submissively but still able to get their way through being a pest. - He's anti using the quadrant and thinks that dogs read things in a more binary way - ie, it's either good for dogs or bad for dogs. Couldn't agree more! I've been saying that for ages and people usually agree with me. The quadrants really peeve me because I hate jargon and they are difficult to understand. - He's pro putting the cue before the behaviour when lure reward training. More heresy! I'll give it a shot with stuff I think I have a good lure with, again with my bonehead, and see what I think. I think there are times for this, and luring makes sense as being one of those times. The way I think of it, when you are luring them and they are beginning to do it, that's when I end up using the verbal cue. It's kind of like clicking and shaping. The luring action turns into the signal anyway. Then again, I've been labelled a haphazard trainer with no aims, so what would I know? Sounds like it was an interesting seminar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The quadrants are hardly difficult to understand. If you can't understand them, perhaps it would be a wise idea to rehome your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The quandrant terminology can be confusing but if expressed as adding, taking away, something dog likes, something dog doesn't like, it is clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Midol that's a bit harsh to say what you did. Or am I mistaking what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Kavik, to me the terminology isn't even that hard. You need to learn what two words mean. Punishment and Reinforcement. If someone can't remember the definitions of two words then I worry about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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