"behaviouralist" -- What Does That Mean

[Kavik]

Thanks for clarification guys

[Erny]

Thanks for clarification guys :D

No worries. Thanks for pointing out your concern. If we didn't know better, your point would have possibly diverted us from making an error.

ETA: Hope that sentence doesn't sound as supercilious as it does when I read it back to myself. Didn't mean it to.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Erny

[JulesP]

My aim is for the dog to not know it can pull!

I am very confident that my dog's recall would hold up in any environment. I haven't had an issue yet. Including calling them off of stock. I would be happy to let them off lead anywhere that was safe. ie. not near traffic.

[Erny]

My aim is for the dog to not know it can pull!

I am very confident that my dog's recall would hold up in any environment. I haven't had an issue yet. Including calling them off of stock. I would be happy to let them off lead anywhere that was safe. ie. not near traffic.

Yes, and that's a good and possible aim too. But not with all dogs. The other thing is that people such as myself, Cosmolo, Kelpie-i and K9Force are called upon to FIX problems that are already created, already learnt. So by that point, it's not about aiming so the dog "doesn't know how to .....".

[Quickasyoucan]

QAYC:

I am new to dog training beyond the basic (a slow learner since my beloved dog is nearly 6 ), but I do find it disappointing that PP supporters dont seem to be able to suggest any viable alternatives to dealing with serious issues.

I can't name a single DOLer who I know is a PP supporter in the true sense of the term. Most trainers I know do support the appropriate use of aversives. Where the debate rages is what is an appropriate use and what is and appropriate aversive.

PF probably I should have expressed myself better, perhaps I should have said those with more positive leanings, there are certainly those on here who have pretty strong views about the use of certain aversives, but I am not sure what to call them them??

Positive leaners? Mostly positive?

As I said I am not totally au fait with things but Anita for one strikes me as a person with fairly strong positive leanings. Not singling her out for anything except how she has come across in several threads. Sorry if I do have you wrong Anita.

I'd not call Anita a PP trainer (she can correct me if she disagrees) but rather a "non-confrontational" one. I lean that way also. I dont' see the point in tackling some issues head on when a strategic withdrawal and a rethink on the relationship with the dog as a whole may be a lot safer and more effective.

But isn't that what any good trainer would do? I am a bit confused now.

Why does the use of aversives have to be seen as confrontational?

I wouldn't think trainers who use a mixture of negative and positive - R, good ones, would just rush in where Angel's fear to tread and blindly pursue something that isn't even working?

[JulesP]

I guess I don't consider it a 'problem' that needs to be fixed Erny. I can tell them to drop or sit during the bath catching and the twits will do that so they aren't hard to catch. So it is more a matter of keeping the recall 'pure'. If that makes any sense.

Timing of when to call is very important.

[JulesP]

I hope to do my job as a trainer well enough so that there isn't a problem to fix.

[Erny]

I guess I don't consider it a 'problem' that needs to be fixed Erny.

Yep. And that's fair enough. I was only joshing on it as I probably consider it a real problem either. The effort, time and trouble to fix the issue simply wouldn't be worth it, most likely.

So it is more a matter of keeping the recall 'pure'. If that makes any sense.

Yep - I understand. I would most likely do the same if I had an issue with it.

[Erny]

Sandgrubber ..... I'm so sorry - your thread seems to have veered off course somewhat and I am certainly a contributor to that happening. If you would prefer, and if people want to keep discussing along the lines that we are, I'm happy if you'd prefer a new thread be started so that this thread might return to topic?

[JulesP]

lol. Loootttssss of people watching! Are they waiting for blood?

[Erny]

lol. Loootttssss of people watching! Are they waiting for blood?

.... They are too. Well, they'll be sorely disappointed I think .

[Erny]

I hope to do my job as a trainer well enough so that there isn't a problem to fix.

Now THAT would put us dog trainers/behaviourists out of commission . I'm sure you'll do well, JulesP. BUT, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes no matter the effort, for some dogs it doesn't happen quite so perfectly and most of the time I have to FIX those problems that others might not have been so vigilant to avoid. And no offense to them ..... sometimes they just haven't realised enough from the beginning and sometimes life just happens.

[Kavik]

Very true, and not always first time owners either. When Zoe was younger I met a lady who had owned Kelpies before, and they had been great, easy dogs (lived well into their teens). I met her when she had a new dog - Cattle x Kelpie, and very quickly it became apparent that this dog was very different to her others and was going to be very difficult. It was aggressive and barked at dogs, joggers, kids running past, umbrellas etc Actually made Zoe's problem that was with other dogs look a bit tame (though it wasn't as bad with other dogs as Zoe was). Every time I saw her she had so many contraptions on the dog - halti, harness and multiple leads - it was obvious she was terrified of it getting away.

[Jigsaw]

I differ somewhat. Sure - life or death. But also life quality.

The ability for a dog to be able to interact outside its own backyard is so important to its quality of life. I have read on a PP forum so many dogs that cannot be walked because they are too aggressive and they've been like this for a long time. There is much talk about the stress on a dog in this PP forum but sometimes I feel if you can use another method of training to get the dog back on track to learning it would lower the stress in the dog a lot quicker and the dog can enjoy a better quality of life.

Quality of life comes into it with barking dogs too - I know I've got one - they can create an enormous amount of stress both within the family and the neighbours.

My dog steals socks - light bulb moment - mark and reward for stealing socks (instead of chasing) and suddenly its lessened and the socks are dropped to take the treat instead of being taken outside. Now I just have to work on the newspapers being stolen and shredded, they're much closer to the backdoor!

[Just Midol]

I'm going OT here.

I hate people who say my dogs are untrained

Wrong. They are trained, in the few things I want them trained in minus a few things we are working on. So my dogs howl when I come in... Ever considered that I TAUGHT them to do it? My dogs run everywhere on lead when walking... Maybe, just possibly, I allow them to do it? They do zoomies in the house? Fantastic! I want them to.

[Erny]

I'm going OT here.

I hate people who say my dogs are untrained

Wrong. They are trained, in the few things I want them trained in minus a few things we are working on. So my dogs howl when I come in... Ever considered that I TAUGHT them to do it? My dogs run everywhere on lead when walking... Maybe, just possibly, I allow them to do it? They do zoomies in the house? Fantastic! I want them to.

Midol - ok. I agree - a problem is not a problem unless it is a problem to the owner, the dog and/or the community.

But I'm not sure what brought your post on, or where it is supposed to be going?

[Just Midol]

I've got a feeling I hit reply in the wrong thread, but I'm going to work now so will look when I get back

[Erny]

I've got a feeling I hit reply in the wrong thread, but I'm going to work now so will look when I get back

No worries. But you really must learn to not poke your tongue out so often. You'd have heard what can happen when the wind changes ..... ?

[corvus]

Wow, this thread got interesting while I was away! Who knew a little out of character sniping would stimulate discussion?

At the risk of continuing the off topic trend....

Thank you Anita, I was frustrated and did need to hear that. I love heated discussions as long as they stay non-personal. When I get called racist and low for something I never intended to be more than a simple observation it's not fun anymore. And I do still think that celebrities should be subject to the same expectations as anyone else, especially in the light of heavy editing and the sensationalist nature of the show in question. I thought that might be taken in the exact opposite way it was.

Anyway, I digress. I hear what you're saying, Erny, about personal referals. I just don't really consider a heavily edited television show a particularly good indication of performance. Although I remember watching Kelly Marks with horses on Barking Mad and that woman filled me with awe. She so quickly and easily identifies the problem and she takes handling that one step further, knowing exactly when to bully a little and when to soothe. There never seemed to be any rhyme or reason to when she was going to be a hard arse, but you always knew instantly when she was that it was exactly what was needed. That, imho, is what makes a good behaviourist. Kelly handles with ease the grey areas in training where a tried and true method just needs a little individual tweaking. Maybe the accord I feel for Kelly's work is what other people feel for Cesar's?

Nonetheless, Kelly has credentials and I think that's a good thing. She'd surely be a great behaviourist without them, but I know from my own experiences that a little formal training can give you a new way of looking at things and I reckon that's always good no matter who it is or what level of training you take. Same about seminars, mentoring, and workshops. Same about internet forums, I guess.

Midol, I get frightened when I agree with something you say in the training section.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I'd not call Anita a PP trainer (she can correct me if she disagrees) but rather a "non-confrontational" one. I lean that way also. I dont' see the point in tackling some issues head on when a strategic withdrawal and a rethink on the relationship with the dog as a whole may be a lot safer and more effective.

Poodlefan has nailed it. It's a long story, but my approach to dog training is influenced by two other pursuits I have some experience in - one I'll mention, martial arts, the other I won't discuss. To go into it without giving everyone a couple of wines would no doubt be very boring, and it's possible people would read some implied criticism in it now that I have a rep as "one of the positive trainers". So I'll shut it.

Like Midol (much as it pains me to say) compliance is not my number 1 priority. It comes in at around a 3 on the list, and as I have basically well mannered dogs who I can pursue my goals with, I'm under no pressure to shift compliance to the #1 spot. I understand that not everyone has that luxury.

Poodlefan, if I were PP I don't think I could correct you

Erny that's an old dog trainer joke I've heard before.. how do you spot a PP trainer? They're the ones with their dogs on lead! :wink:

Humourless git observation: a lot of people with sighthounds got them from rescue or breeders who insisted as a condition of sale than the dogs never be walked off lead. It's a condition imposed by most greyhound rescues.