Quickasyoucan Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Dunbar suggested demo'ing methods for people (by video if necessary) ... I'd like to see (unedited) video footage of "red-zone" dogs being rehabilitated using only the positive methods that Ian Dunbar and others prescribe. Even for some of the not so "red-zone" dogs. I often don't or can't get answers from PP's of "what they would or might do when" (giving fairly curly situations). I've asked and the question is either skirted around or, as in one instance at a "PP seminar", was told "that's a subject for another seminar". I've been waiting for that seminar ever since (ie years). I love using positives. It makes me feel good. Sure as eggs makes me feel less "guilty" which is what I sometimes end up feeling when amongst a crowd of PP's who suggest ANYTHING else is cruel (even though I know that one or more of those people use corrections themselves when they think it is necessary). These are some of the links to video footage that have been put up .... but surely there's got to be far better, because in my opinion, these are exta-ordinary low quality and on the most basic of things .... How to Teach a Border Collie Their Name Determine If Your Dog Is Too Nervous to Train Basic Dog Training Tips - Heel (BTW the fellow in this video is wrong .... horses are traditionally worked on the handler's right; dogs on the left, but that's besides the point) ... if it's important to convince them, but otherwise not bothering with online back and forth. If the use of aversives is cruel, wrong and so on and so forth, why wouldn't it ever NOT be important to convince us? I'd like to be convinced, because I feel nicer using positives than I do including aversives in training. But what I feel and what's best for the dog in its circumstances isn't always the same thing. Great post Erny. I asked for suggstions in the Cesar Millan thread about what PP people would do with a red zone dog, didn't get any answers any referrals to links. It's disappointing, like I said before, I love looking at new things, weighing them up. It is so easy (and disappointing) to be in opposition but not suggest anything new. People don't do themselves any favours if they just criticise, criticise and don't actually suggest an alternative. I am new to dog training beyond the basic (a slow learner since my beloved dog is nearly 6 ), but I do find it disappointing that PP supporters dont seem to be able to suggest any viable alternatives to dealing with serious issues. There also seems almost to be the suggestion that those who do use aversives get some peverse enjoyment out of it. God we all love our dogs, if there was a magic "positive" wand to deal with serious ingrained issues, I am sure we would all prefer to use it, but I haven't seen or heard anything yet to support an argument. And for Ian Dunbar to suggest discussion is a waste of time, methinks someone has developed an enormous ego and stopped learning some time ago! Unless those comments are seriously out of context I won't be looking up any of his methods. Edited February 2, 2009 by Quickasyoucan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I like arguing about theory Anita! Erny I am happy to say what I would do in a training situation as long as there is respect. I do think that a lot of the positive trainers are concerned about being hammered on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) QAYC: I am new to dog training beyond the basic (a slow learner since my beloved dog is nearly 6 ), but I do find it disappointing that PP supporters dont seem to be able to suggest any viable alternatives to dealing with serious issues. I can't name a single DOLer who I know is a PP supporter in the true sense of the term. Most trainers I know do support the appropriate use of aversives. Where the debate rages is what is an appropriate use and what is and appropriate aversive. Edited February 2, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) I like arguing about theory Anita! Erny I am happy to say what I would do in a training situation as long as there is respect. I do think that a lot of the positive trainers are concerned about being hammered on here. Fair enough JulesP. The only thing I'd like to do is quantify "hammering". I agree that no-one should be beaten down provided they are reasonable in return. And it certainly shouldn't turn personal from either 'court'. But if "hammering" means "don't argue with me; don't question the method" then I wouldn't be able to guarantee to comply . Edited February 2, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Anita: ... one of the most useful things I got out of the Dunbar conference this weekend is that arguing with other trainers online is worse than pointless. I have heard him say this also. He said it when I heard him in the context of it being pointless in terms of actually helping dog owners train their dogs and dog owners with problem dogs. I agree with him in that context. What debate can do is confuse the crap out of people who come here for help with their dogs. Personally I think the practical help you can give or get on an internet forum is extremely limited but sometimes that's not the message conveyed here. Show me two dog trainers and I'll show you a debate. Sometimes its too easy to forget that people who want to use this forum as advice are reading along with the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 QAYC:I am new to dog training beyond the basic (a slow learner since my beloved dog is nearly 6 ), but I do find it disappointing that PP supporters dont seem to be able to suggest any viable alternatives to dealing with serious issues. I can't name a single DOLer who I know is a PP supporter in the true sense of the term. Most trainers I know do support the appropriate use of aversives. Where the debate rages is what is an appropriate use and what is and appropriate aversive. PF probably I should have expressed myself better, perhaps I should have said those with more positive leanings, there are certainly those on here who have pretty strong views about the use of certain aversives, but I am not sure what to call them them?? Positive leaners? Mostly positive? As I said I am not totally au fait with things but Anita for one strikes me as a person with fairly strong positive leanings. Not singling her out for anything except how she has come across in several threads. Sorry if I do have you wrong Anita. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 It's disappointing, like I said before, I love looking at new things, weighing them up. It is so easy (and disappointing) to be in opposition but not suggest anything new. People don't do themselves any favours if they just criticise, criticise and don't actually suggest an alternative. I have read numerous posts/threads in another forum, many of which express distress at not being able to reliably recall their dogs, even when much of the PP training the dog has received has been expressed/described. The 'solutions' (loose term) I have commonly read from PP'rs is to keep the dog on a lead unless they can find a fenced in area to run their dogs. When a PP method has been tried and tried well, IS that really the only solution they can or will offer? I'm not trying to be smart here ..... I sincerely do not understand the sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) QAYC:I am new to dog training beyond the basic (a slow learner since my beloved dog is nearly 6 ), but I do find it disappointing that PP supporters dont seem to be able to suggest any viable alternatives to dealing with serious issues. I can't name a single DOLer who I know is a PP supporter in the true sense of the term. Most trainers I know do support the appropriate use of aversives. Where the debate rages is what is an appropriate use and what is and appropriate aversive. PF probably I should have expressed myself better, perhaps I should have said those with more positive leanings, there are certainly those on here who have pretty strong views about the use of certain aversives, but I am not sure what to call them them?? Positive leaners? Mostly positive? As I said I am not totally au fait with things but Anita for one strikes me as a person with fairly strong positive leanings. Not singling her out for anything except how she has come across in several threads. Sorry if I do have you wrong Anita. I'd not call Anita a PP trainer (she can correct me if she disagrees) but rather a "non-confrontational" one. I lean that way also. I dont' see the point in tackling some issues head on when a strategic withdrawal and a rethink on the relationship with the dog as a whole may be a lot safer and more effective. Erny that's an old dog trainer joke I've heard before.. how do you spot a PP trainer? They're the ones with their dogs on lead! :wink: Edited February 2, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Errr we discuss stuff because we like doing so. If you don't like it then you don't have to get involved. Mr Dunbar sounds like he needs to take a chill pill. Some people like to discuss, debate until the cows come home, some don't. I don't care if people don't like to do this but will stand up for my right to do so! Even discussions that I don't agree about I find interesting and usually get something of value out of them. Great post, JulesP. I really enjoy discussing stuff with people who sport this attitude. In another forum, some people are so against (eg) e-collar use (even when used on a low stim/neg ref basis) and caused so much havoc that it destroyed 'conversation' and threads, that a separate sub-forum was created so that those who wanted to learn about the good use of e-collar training could do so without interuption. That's great, except I love conversing with others who don't necessarily share my pov. Talking with the converted is not exactly unpleasant, but you don't learn too much if you are discussing methodology point of views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I do think that giving advice to a handler that you don't know on a forum can be dangerous. You don't know if they can read the dog correctly, what their timing is like etc. I had a pupil explain a problem on the weekend and thought I was going to be needing Erny from the description. What I saw was not at all how it was described. I have 100% reliable recalls, under distraction. Except at bath time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Those are shocking videos, I'd be embarrassed to put something like that up if you are supposed to be an 'expert'! Edit to explain: I would have set myself up to succeed as well as the dog if I knew I was going to be filmed At least had a look at the dog and make sure it was going to be receptive to the techniques I wanted to show in that environment and not shut down and make me look like I have no idea! Edited February 2, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Erny that's an old dog trainer joke I've heard before.. how do you spot a PP trainer? They're the ones with their dogs on lead! :wink: I hadn't heard that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Erny the only time I would use an ecollar would be to fix a life or death issue. What I have got out the ecollar discussions is the danger of correction chains, not something I use but I am even more determined now to get those dogs heeling on a flat collar! So that is what I got out of those ecollar discussions. I have had horses for years. There are soooo many different methods. What I tell people that are getting lost is look for the method that speaks to you. PP speaks to me with dogs. Shaping I am not so keen on because I am impatient! I also did natural horsemanship stuff but the not so nutty stuff. When I did dressage I liked the classical approach. There is a theme here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) What I saw was not at all how it was described. I notice that too and is why it can be really difficult to provide tips/answers via the internet, or refrain from going too far with advice without seeming as though you're trying to keep secrets. There is one thing that I think everyone DOES agree on (PP or 'Balanced' Trainers) and that is one should not give advice over the net when the issue relates to aggression. I have 100% reliable recalls, under distraction. Except at bath time ..... So .... whatcha gunna do about THAT? (Joking) Edited February 2, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 What am I gunna do?? stalk the buggers down and catch them! That is what I tell my pupils to do! I never call them if I know that they are not going to obey me. I don't want them to ever learn that mummy can be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Erny the only time I would use an ecollar would be to fix a life or death issue. I differ somewhat. Sure - life or death. But also life quality. I also see an e-collar for some dogs as actually kinder than having a dog pull like a steam train in a flat collar. Remember, I'm talking about how I use the e-collar (stims as low as a tingle and up to the equivalent of what the dog might perceive as a flea bite). I also like to be able to give a dog the freedom of a run off lead and in different/varying and interesting environments. Not just, say, down at KCC Park off-lead yard (which is very handy to have available for use, but becomes somewhat boring if that's the only place a person can let their dog run free). Simultaneously, I love the "drive training" work I'm doing with my youngster. Although I'm working on it, I do feel though that I'm going to need the back up of the e-collar (using it as I've mentioned) for teaching self-control in high distraction areas ie dog/dog. Not yet. But maybe some time. Edited February 2, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 You would use one for dog-dog distractions? That would be an area I'd be worried about in case the dog thinks the stim is coming from the other dog. (just paranoid little me who worries about dog-dog issues) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 What am I gunna do?? stalk the buggers down and catch them! That is what I tell my pupils to do! I never call them if I know that they are not going to obey me. I don't want them to ever learn that mummy can be ignored. .... but that doesn't solve the "won't recall" problem does it? It's a 'management' strategy. Honestly - I'm not being serious here, because if the dogs are in your back yard, who cares? And if they don't get their bath, it wouldn't exactly be disastrous or life quality diminishing. Unless they stunk so much they lost their 'indoor' privileges . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Kavik- i have used one for dog aggression and dog excitability issues with exceptional success but the training is always started without any other dog in the picture so that the dog learns how to respond to the e collar with no other dog present. Edited February 2, 2009 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 You would use one for dog-dog distractions? That would be an area I'd be worried about in case the dog thinks the stim is coming from the other dog. (just paranoid little me who worries about dog-dog issues) Kavik - it's about the training with it that I'd do at home (no distractions) first that would make that differentiation. And the distractions would be added in on a low intensity basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now