Schedules/rate Of Reinforcement

[Lablover]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

Please feel add to add to the above questions.

[Vickie]

I certainly think about rewards & rates.

yes, I definitely think some reward too little. I wonder if you can ever reward too much or too often (well I know you can but in a very specific set of circumstances).

My questions/focus tends to be more on what behaviours are being or not being rewarded, and the quality of rewards in value terms to the dog, rather than an actual frequency thing.

[Luke W]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

Please feel add to add to the above questions.

I do but not enough concentrate on rates of reinforcement but not enough and I don't put into practice the theory as much as I should.

I think my training results would be better if I kept a training diary which included exercise success rates and rates of reinforcement.

But that requires a lot of effort.

I think some owners to reward too often/too little.

I have so many DVDs that I really should force myself to watch (Ted Trurner and Bob Bailey spring to mind).

[WildatHeart]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

It would depend what level of training the dog was at. If the dog was learning a new behaviour then i would want to be rewarding everytime. After the dog knows what is being asked i would put it on an intermittant schedule of reforcement (reinforcing every now and again)

[luvsdogs]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

It would depend what level of training the dog was at. If the dog was learning a new behaviour then i would want to be rewarding everytime. After the dog knows what is being asked i would put it on an intermittant schedule of reforcement (reinforcing every now and again)

That's what I do. It's also wise to never completely cut out rewards. To keep the dog interested. Even if it's every other day/week.

[laffi]

I certainly think about rewards & rates.

yes, I definitely think some reward too little. I wonder if you can ever reward too much or too often (well I know you can but in a very specific set of circumstances).

My questions/focus tends to be more on what behaviours are being or not being rewarded, and the quality of rewards in value terms to the dog, rather than an actual frequency thing.

I totally agree! I spend a lot of time thinking about the value the different rewards represent for the dog.

[ness]

I think you only reward to much when the dog won't do the desired behavior without receiving a reward. Or more to the point if you ask the dog to repeat a behavior a second time without having rewarded it the first time and the dog doesn't then do it.

[Ptolomy]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

It would depend what level of training the dog was at. If the dog was learning a new behaviour then i would want to be rewarding everytime. After the dog knows what is being asked i would put it on an intermittant schedule of reforcement (reinforcing every now and again)

I have to agree that if it is a new behaviour I would be rewarding often but quickly moving to a variable schedule.

However, Last week my dogs started training after having 6 weeks off. For the first 2 weeks I have been working on short sessions with a very high reward rate - rewarding for things they know really well like sits, drops and downs, right and left about turns, dog in the box, leaving the start post etc. These are all things they know very well and could do in their sleep, but it doesn't hurt to increase the reward rate every now and again, they are all working like they have new batteries in.

Next week we will go back to 1-2 nights of duration - where their dinner will be split into 3 containers and they will do 3 lots of heeling for it. If they lose concertration, they will be put away without a reward, and it will be one of the others turn. You should see the look on their faces, you can guarantee that it only ever happens once in a session ;)

Have to say that I never ever cease rewarding altogether........ and if helping somebody else I will often ask what there plan is, where they are going to reward, and what they will do if it goes pearshaped.

[Tonymc]

The dog is the best judge. Tony

[squeak]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

Please feel add to add to the above questions.

I think a lot about this, but also a lot about my timing - exactly what am I rewarding. I see owners who bribe, I see owners who under reward, but my biggest gripe is owners who's timing is so far out that they are actually rewarding something that they don't intend to, ie., dog sat quickly and straight, but owner fumbled that much or wasn't paying attention that the dog had gotten up before they got the reward, so the owner inadvertently rewarded the dog for getting up. I understand that it happens to all of us, but with some people, they are so consistent in it, I believe it is a problem.

[saram]

Thinking about this all the time, as obviously in the end a lot of the behaviours I'm working on I want to be habits and not rewarded. I tend to use the similar tact to what I have been told to do with kids

praise always - reward at a high rate in the beginning but then come down to random reward rate, so you are offering rewards at random (obviously when the behaviour is beening performed) This has been shown to have good rates of retention with humans so hoping it works on dogs too :-)

[The Spotted Devil]

Do you concentrate on such at training, or while pondering about training?

Do you think some owners reward too often/too little?

Please feel add to add to the above questions.

:p

I think about it an awful lot, particularly with a dog that has to be convinced that working, in any sense of the word, is fun! I have to constantly assess his level of motivation and ask myself whether I am rewarding too much, too little or should just throw in the towel for the day :D I am finding that, with Zig's maturity, and my growing understanding of what makes him tick the schedule of reinforcement has to change as well. If he's really bouncing out of his skin and truly understands what I'm asking (and this takes a lot longer than often imagined IMO), then using very few food rewards can produce the most lovely work. However, if he is just the slightest bit uncertain then not enough food rewards can make him completely switch off and become disinterested. Similarly too many food rewards becomes 'too easy' and he doesn't throw himself into his work. It's a very, very fine line with Zig! When I begin to use verbal praise instead of food, it's quite similar. Lots of praise on every heeling turn to encourage him but very little is needed for recalls, which now seem to be self-rewarding.

Not sure about other owners in terms of scheduling but I think timing can be an issue and thinking the dog truly 'gets' the exercise when they don't.

Edited January 31, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[Erny]

I don't think I "think" about it so much as I am always "aware" or "conscious" of it. Being aware of training phase/level and frequency of reinforcement and working to extend that out more and more. Also keeping randomisation in mind as well. Watching how training is going and adjusting accordingly.

[Lablover]

Rather rather start a new thread, whose dog's love training?

From one to ten rating? Ten being crazy to train, easily focused and not distracted?

Could you also add retrieving drive rating?

Thankyou.

[laffi]

Rather rather start a new thread, whose dog's love training?

From one to ten rating? Ten being crazy to train, easily focused and not distracted?

Could you also add retrieving drive rating?

Thankyou.

I have to dogs:

dog nr 1:

crazy to train 10/10

easily focused 10/10

retrieve drive 9/10 (her tennis ball would be 20/10 but she is a snob and doesn't retrieve random items so I put 9/10)

dog nr 2:

crazy to train 9/10

easily focused 7/10

retrieve drive 5/10

Edited February 2, 2009 by laffi

[Erny]

Rather rather start a new thread, whose dog's love training?

From one to ten rating? Ten being crazy to train, easily focused and not distracted?

So far, rating 10 (drive training). Under distraction .... well, that depends on what the distraction is. Generally a "10" but sometimes slipping to a "9" (which for a RR I think is still pretty good). But he's young and the sessions are kept short and I am not at the point of pushing really high distractions at this stage and I use the training that he knows judiciously.

Could you also add retrieving drive rating?

As far as chasing the ball is concerned, I'd suggest initially a "10" but he slips down to a "9" pretty quickly. Sometimes (after just a short while and depending on where we are doing this) he'll go hell for leather after the ball, but lose interest when he gets to it and might trot off without it. So I'm not sure how to score that. I guess because he's not bothering to even pick it up on some of those occasions it might score "0" ???

Edited February 2, 2009 by Erny

[Lablover]

Laffi, 9 and 10 out of 10 for drive? Cool.

Erny, 10 out of 10 for drive? Also cool.

Erny, what are your plans for your pup? Any trialling?

[The Spotted Devil]

Rather rather start a new thread, whose dog's love training?

From one to ten rating? Ten being crazy to train, easily focused and not distracted?

Could you also add retrieving drive rating?

Thankyou.

Crazy to train, easily focused and not distracted - naturally an even "0" but I think I've worked it up to a "10" in some situations and perhaps only a "7" in others. Although agility on Sunday wasn't too crash hot for focus - but it's very new for him, high distraction environment and it was muggy - not a good combination.

Food drive - with good variety and judicious use it can be a "10" but as in agility training this week, he was a bit over everything.

Retrieving drive - hmmm.....if I use your dogs as a marker of 10/10, LL, I'd say about a "6" or even "7" on a good day but it wears thin on him very quickly. Variety is the key - I'm going to try a bag of different toys this week at agility and keep swapping them. Will be an interesting experiment

Leg lifting drive - 10/10 under any circumstances I actually use this as a reward after some good training efforts at the park

[Lablover]

Leg lifting drive - 10/10 under any circumstances I actually use this as a reward after some good training efforts at the park

Leg lifting when training????

Interesting your comment, reminded me......in retrieving training, this may be seen as as form LACK OF EFFORT/obedience trainers call it shut down/delay tactics, versus the teaching phase when more positive is required.

[Erny]

Laffi, 9 and 10 out of 10 for drive? Cool.

Erny, 10 out of 10 for drive? Also cool.

Erny, what are your plans for your pup? Any trialling?

Yes .... that's on the cards, LL. I'm allowing things to develop, progress and unfold in their own time. I'm not in a hurry. In fact, I recently had a bit of a concern that he might have had a cruciate rupture and began to worry that I might not be able to do the drive work with him (although the Vet specialist said the ops are pretty good and results usually lead to the dog being able to return to usual exercise). Anyway, in those few days that I had to think about things before his appointment with the specialist, I thought if he couldn't continue drive training then perhaps "dancing". We already have some (very rusty) 'steps' going and he really enjoys it. Mind you .... if he grows even a whisker taller than he already is (which is likely), then I'm gunna have to wear platform shoes for those 'weaving' moves .

For the most part though and more importantly than anything else, I'm just enjoying what I am doing, as is he. So whilst ob trialling is quite a possibility, it is not a "must do".

Oh .... and for the 10/10 for drive? Remember, I haven't fully tested (proofed) him because he's not ready for it. So the 10/10 score is not a good one to hang my hat on atm. He's a RR. I understand that for what I'm doing the breed (generally speaking) doesn't sport the really strong and persistent drives that other breeds and breed lines can and do. I'm therefore taking his training as easy and carefully as I can and I'm spending more time on maintaining and stengthening the drive I've built rather than on the obedience skills he's learnt. He really makes me laugh though .... he's learnt/learning heel 'position' and although it isn't perfect yet, when he realises he's too far out he does a jump/flip to get in snug .... and almost knocks me flying. And a sit from a drop comprises of him leaping into the air first and then coming down into the sit.

I dabbled at some scent detection work the other week. Mainly to give him something else for mental stimulation. Have only done it once so I won't say he's anywhere near 'got it'. Much of the time it was a pain in the butt, because if the breeze which came up at the time didn't blow the boxes around, then he'd grab them and run around the yard with them. I'll probably need to work it in my hallway, although it is a narrow hall and he's grown so big there doesn't feel as though there is much room to move. I'll return to that at some other stage.