Choice & Instinctual Drive

[Quickasyoucan]

I know this is off topic but, understanding that drive is genetic, and that dog's can have varying degrees of it, is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life?? I don't have any experience of low drive dogs to really understand that concept.

Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form?

Golly, I see dogs every time I am out in the public. Most pet owners prefer them, or complain when their dogs cause "problems", such as garden damage, dirt tracks caused by the dogs running around the fenced yards, chewing, digging etc.

Working dogs need a job/outlet.

Yeah but I always wonder if they really have no drive or whether it just hasn't been explored with them. I was thinking more about dogs people had worked (or tried to) in drive.

Sort of wondering on a more philosophical level what might then motivate them?? Sorry not trying to hijack the thread, just interested.

[sandgrubber]

K9: Drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli, you cant force a dog into drive or condition drive when it isn't there. In dogs not trained through drive the dog has very little choice when it goes into drive, the trigger (rabbit?) being chased for example has more control over the dog than the dog does.

Confused. Conscious and subconscious are a bit murky even with humans. Freud vs Skinner and all that. Or for that matter, Luther vs the Pope. But in dogs?

I think this is a great thread.

What I think I'm hearing is that the concept of free will, developed for humans, doesn't map onto dogs very well. We are -- intentionally or unintentionally -- always conditioning or preconditioning our dogs to respond in one way or another. Pragmatically, I'd say the goal is to set up conditioning that leads to behaviour that doesn't drive the dog crazy and gets the dog to do what we want -- providing that what we want is within the dog's range of semi-natural behaviours. Different trainers do this differently .. . with varying rates of success.

Edited January 30, 2009 by sandgrubber

[Steve K9Pro]

Q: I know this is off topic but, understanding that drive is genetic, and that dog's can have varying degrees of it, is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life?? I don't have any experience of low drive dogs to really understand that concept.

Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form?

K9: every dog has some level of drive, some have such high thresholds to drives that drive itself rarely manifests other have bnerve issues that raise the thresholds to positive drives making them unseen & unusable also.

SG: Confused. Conscious and subconscious are a bit murky even with humans. Freud vs Skinner and all that. Or for that matter, Luther vs the Pope. But in dogs?

K9: Even more so in dogs is the difference between sub conscious levels of thought & conscious levels of thought.

Sg: What I think I'm hearing is that the concept of free will, developed for humans, doesn't map onto dogs very well. We are -- intentionally or unintentionally -- always conditioning or preconditioning our dogs to respond in one way or another. Pragmatically, I'd say the goal is to set up conditioning that leads to behaviour that doesn't drive the dog crazy and gets the dog to do what we want -- providing that what we want is within the dog's range of semi-natural behaviours. Different trainers do this differently .. . with varying rates of success.

K9: more or less that's pretty much it...

[WoofnHoof]

This is where the philosophy of animal conciousness and ethics collide, and is the subject of an increasing number of studies. As yet we don't know what is concious and what is subconcious in animals, Temple Grandin has some interesting theories I have a link here somewhere...

Here 'tis

There are more on her website regarding conciousness in animals.

Personally I think that if someone has conditioned a response to a certain drive there is an ethical onus on them to then ensure that this response does not result in diminished welfare for the animal, in greyhound racing the animal cannot judge whether it's exertions in extreme heat will result in severe heat stress and the responsibility is on regulators to set reasonable limits.

[Lablover]

So the answer in whether there is a choice lies in the degree of training?

Can you not take an ex racing greyhound and teach it a recall in a paddock where there is a rabbit? Is it possible?

Vickie, there begs another question perhaps. The original poster focused on greyhounds - having a lot of drive. If drive training was so easy, why do retired racing greyhounds not go onto star at basic obedience trials. Aren't dogs wonderful, so diverse.

[jesomil]

Personally I think that if someone has conditioned a response to a certain drive there is an ethical onus on them to then ensure that this response does not result in diminished welfare for the animal, in greyhound racing the animal cannot judge whether it's exertions in extreme heat will result in severe heat stress and the responsibility is on regulators to set reasonable limits.

I agree with this. Whether the drive be conditioned or instinctual we have to consider the welfare aspects.

I dont believe it is ever force as the dog is getting satisfaction from it. But we need to recognise that the dogs sometimes will not set their own limits and we have to do it for them.

[corvus]

Corvus, that's a completely different scenario. Lets say you were sadistic and used live rats in building drive. Every day you'd throw a rat out, you somehow controlled the rat. You'd let the dog chase it for a few minutes and when he looks like he is trying hard you let him get one bite and then remove the rat. You repeat it over and over day after day, for years. Your dog gets no other stimulation through the day except chasing this rat. One day it's raining, you release the rat outside and open the door for your dog to get out. You've built his desire to catch this rat to insane heights, possible 100 times higher than his current prey levels.

Does your dog have a choice? The instinct to chase the rat is going to overcome everything. He won't be able to think.

But the thing is, it's very hard to tell because how can you say the dog chases because it has no choice or the dog chases because it chooses to chase? If its drive is that high it will ALWAYS choose to chase because there is nothing that feels better or more satisfying, so how can you say for certain that it has no choice? It's like putting a pen in my hand and paper in front of me and saying that because I draw every time, I have no choice. I do have a choice because I could choose not to draw for whatever reason and it would probably last for a little while at least, but if I were a simpler creature I wouldn't ever have a good reason not to draw.

I honestly couldn't imagine this dog of my mother's being more prey driven because I've never seen a dog more driven. He just expresses it in a different way to, say, a GSD. Apparently he has threatened my mother in an attempt to stop her from stopping him from getting at a lizard. He's such a mild mannered dog I almost couldn't believe it of him except that I saw what was left of the garage wall after the possum. In a sense, the lizard is very much like the scenario you describe. He lies around all day and doesn't play or interact with the other dogs and when there's a lizard he goes nuts. Every time someone takes a lizard away from him he wants the next one more. If he gets the lizard his drive to get another just builds. He has just enough success with lizards to turn him into a monster around them. It's him that makes me think people should train in drive. If he was a bigger dog and/or a bit more aggro he'd be a serious danger.

Anyway, I'm not sure that he would stop thinking. Maybe he would. Maybe he would appear to not be thinking but actually not hear or see anything else because he was so focused on the rat. I honestly think he's always thinking about how he could catch this animal even as he's chasing it. It seems maladaptive to be able to be riled up to such an extent that you stop thinking and just act.

[Lablover]

I know this is off topic but, understanding that drive is genetic, and that dog's can have varying degrees of it, is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life?? I don't have any experience of low drive dogs to really understand that concept.

Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form?

Golly, I see dogs every time I am out in the public. Most pet owners prefer them, or complain when their dogs cause "problems", such as garden damage, dirt tracks caused by the dogs running around the fenced yards, chewing, digging etc.

Working dogs need a job/outlet.

Yeah but I always wonder if they really have no drive or whether it just hasn't been explored with them. I was thinking more about dogs people had worked (or tried to) in drive.

Sort of wondering on a more philosophical level what might then motivate them?? Sorry not trying to hijack the thread, just interested.

My focus is on working labradors, so my view is channelled on such. It is very difficult to answer your question unless you know the particular dog and owner, and the owners criteria or endeavour.

Teaching corrrections/negative reinforcement used to and still does work.....somehow I think as Australia concentrates on show lines, we have lost a certain degree of hardness.

Many obedience trainers, state it only takes 6 weeks to train a CD or other basic requirement with a dog who enjoys good health.

[sandgrubber]

Someone once told me that in training guide dogs, you MUST develop the dog's ability to choose, eg. to ignore commands that may result in danger. If a dog is given a command to walk out in front of a train and it obeys, it would endanger its blind owner.

I'd be curious to know if this is true . . . .am I correct in assuming that drive training is a better approach for achieving this . . . that is, at an advanced level, the natural instinct to respond to danger may be allowed to over-ride the response to commands?

ps, I really don't know . . . there's no agenda in the question.

[Kavik]

Yes I am sure they train the dogs to disobey commands if the result would be dangerous - eg stepping off the curb into the street when there is traffic.

[Vickie]

So the answer in whether there is a choice lies in the degree of training?

Can you not take an ex racing greyhound and teach it a recall in a paddock where there is a rabbit? Is it possible?

Vickie, there begs another question perhaps. The original poster focused on greyhounds - having a lot of drive. If drive training was so easy, why do retired racing greyhounds not go onto star at basic obedience trials. Aren't dogs wonderful, so diverse.

yep, they sure are. I don't do "drive training" but I suspect that the relationship between the activity & the reward has something to do with your question in some breeds. Just as I am able to reward my dog on sheep, with the sheep, for obeying my command over her instinct, you are able to reward yours in a similar way for retrieving. For greyhounds, the activity of obedience itself bears no resemblance to what they do in natural drive.

BTW we have a greyhound competing here in NSW in agility & I LOVE to watch her run. She has a good understanding of what she needs to do & does so at varying motivation & speeds. Every now & then she does her zoomies & flies round & round the course. It is so beautiful to watch. I am always amazed that she never leaves the ring & recalls out of it really well. She then continues the course like nothing happened. It is impossible not to smile.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Vickie

[Lablover]

It is impossible not to smile.

As long as the dog and owner are happy. Tis all that matters.

[m-j]

This is mostly about greyhounds, but I am interested in other dogs. This isn't about reducing drive, it only applies to those where chasing has ALWAYS been encouraged.

Greyhounds as with all dogs they have different levels of drive, plus some of these dogs just love running. These are the dogs that don't go through the hot wire or they are quite happy for others to have the toy. Dogs in races do have choices if they have experienced the downfalls of running ie other dog attacking them, hot wether etc if they know, yes they won't go there again, but sometimes the reward of doing the desirable behaviour outeighs the downfalls.

Dogs that "fight" will be banned to make it fair on the other dogs, as it is my understanding is that defense is the only thing that "cuts through" prey drive. It is survival if you (the dog) are chasing a rabbit and a tiger then starts chasing you it is probably a good idea to get out of there so you get to chase a rabbit another day.

Plus no drive satisfaction will also stop dogs from trying as prey drive is a fixed action pattern they feel compelled to complete the sequence, after many tries no completion, I suppose they figure why bother, but if the dog nearly catches it, the dog will try again. It has been discussed by a racing board somewhere (can't remember which state)to give the dogs drive satisfaction after going past the post ie letting them catch the lure, as trainers are finding after a while dogs can loose interest.

is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life??

We have one dog at work that has no prey drive (that I can find, I will not go to live kills) , I believe he isn't going to make it as a race dog, not in this lifetime or the next, but will make a great pet, in the wild he might die unless he scavenges, I'm guessing. What would motivate this dog to do things, his other drives, when he came he hadn't been handled much and certainly wouldn't come to anyone, I utilised his food drive to get him to me, he ignored me waving the toy around, which is what I usually do.

cheers

M-J

[Erny]

I'd be curious to know if this is true . . . .am I correct in assuming that drive training is a better approach for achieving this . . . that is, at an advanced level, the natural instinct to respond to danger may be allowed to over-ride the response to commands?

If I've understood your question correctly ... the thing is with guide dogs that there are many 'dangers' that would not represent as a danger to the dog for it to instinctively avoid. Eg. The dog does not instinctively know that walking in front of moving cars is dangerous. The only way this would be established would be to set the situation up so that a negative association is formed. And who really wants to do that in the situation of dog/car?

[Lablover]

but sometimes the reward of doing the desirable behaviour outeighs the downfalls.

M-J

That is it, in a nutshell. If one (and owner, trainer and/or handler) desires to win or bred the best possible dog. Every so often we can see a young or inexperienced dog, who displays awesome drive (good temperament blah blah blah) but nowdays it is becoming rare, not only due to my chosen bred, labradors, as hunting - in Australia - is becoming more restricted (not only to drought). On a good point, countries overseas have no such broad restrictions and importing genetic material via semen or breeding stock remain available.

Erny, just to add.....guide dog trainers use punishment.

[Kelpie-i]

Erny, just to add.....guide dog trainers use punishment

LL a little birdie told me that both the guide dogs and assistance dogs training schools are being evily infiltrated by Delta trainers, therefore trying to change the methods used.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Just Midol]

Erny, just to add.....guide dog trainers use punishment

LL a little birdie told me that both the guide dogs and assistance dogs training schools are being evily infiltrated by Delta trainers, therefore trying to change the methods used.

Oh well, good test for delta methods. If it works, great, if it fails, someone dies.