Choice & Instinctual Drive

[Just Midol]

Just after the opinions from those who train their dogs in drive, or have high drive dogs which they have developed.

When you increase a dogs drive to the point he'll do anything to obtain the prey item, like in greyhound racing, is it still a choice when the dog chases it or have you increased his instinctual desires and conditioned him to the point that you no longer believe he has a choice?

For example, many high drive dogs will keep working after they feel pain. Police dogs are one, someone can be beating on them and they won't release. Once you've developed the drive to such a high level do you still think your dog has a choice on whether he acts or not?

This is mostly about greyhounds, but I am interested in other dogs. This isn't about reducing drive, it only applies to those where chasing has ALWAYS been encouraged.

[Luke W]

This could get into some very deep philosophical territory.

My gut reaction is, "No dogs don't have a choice". Dogs never have a 'choice'.

It should be noted though that I lean very heavily toward the 'no such thing as free will' camp anyway.

If people don't have choice, then dogs don't either.

[Cosmolo]

If choice is defined as the dog processing information and making a decision then no i don't believe the dog has a choice- when drive kicks in, the dog doesn't think about it.

[Just Midol]

So to further your posts, if a greyhound trainer puts his dog on the track, and the thingy ma jig starts to move really, they are forcing the dog to race.

If a hunter takes his dog outs, and hunts, he is forcing the dog to retrieve.

If a sled dog owner takes his dogs out, and throws on the harness, they are forcing the dog to run.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Just Midol

[Luke W]

So to further your posts, if a greyhound trainer puts his dog on the track, and the thingy ma jig starts to move really, they are forcing the dog to race.

If a hunter takes his dog outs, and hunts, he is forcing the dog to retrieve.

If a sled dog owner takes his dogs out, and throws on the harness, they are forcing the dog to run.

I don't think that the dog having no choice is necessarily synonymous with the handler 'forcing' the dog.

It's really going to come down to your definition of 'force'.

Even if we decide it doesn't meet the definitions of "force", it doesn't make it morally acceptable.

Language is so inadequate.

Philosophy is so fascinating

Edited January 29, 2009 by Luke W

[MonElite]

Ill try to put into man perspective.

You go out, each time you go out and look at a beatifull girl she gives you a smile and eventually you get to take her home.

Now you go out and a beautifull girl walks by are you forced to take her home?

[Just Midol]

So to further your posts, if a greyhound trainer puts his dog on the track, and the thingy ma jig starts to move really, they are forcing the dog to race.

If a hunter takes his dog outs, and hunts, he is forcing the dog to retrieve.

If a sled dog owner takes his dogs out, and throws on the harness, they are forcing the dog to run.

I don't think that the dog having no choice is necessarily synonymous with the handler 'forcing' the dog.

It's really going to come down to your definition of 'force'.

Even if we decide it doesn't meet the definitions of "force", it doesn't make it morally acceptable.

Language is so inadequate.

Philosophy is so fascinating

My definition of force isn't limited to physical, which could be why I consider it forcing.

Ill try to put into man perspective.

You go out, each time you go out and look at a beatifull girl she gives you a smile and eventually you get to take her home.

Now you go out and a beautifull girl walks by are you forced to take her home?

Dog's aren't people. They don't have the ability to reason.

[MonElite]

Some dogs I know have more ability to reason than some man I know

[Jigsaw]

Is this much different though when developing drive in a dog or refining it so the drive works for you, to seeing talent in a young child say for tennis or golf and they then become a professional sportsperson. There has been much debate as to whether Tiger Woods had a choice to be a golfer or was he forced to be by the way his father introduced him to the sport. I don't think he has any regrets about it though.

[poodlefan]

As I see it, an instinctive response isn't necessarily a compelled one.

The instinct to chase is very strong in some dogs but they can be selective about what they chase, for how long they chase or indeed when they do it.

A dog that enjoys retrieving may choose not to under some circumstances.

Dogs that work through pain will have strong drives but all will have their limits.

Without a doubt a dog that enjoys what you're asking of it is going to be a lot more willing to persevere.

Edited January 29, 2009 by poodlefan

[Cordelia]

It's called Conditioning, Midol. There's no 'force' about it. The dog still has 'the choice' not chase... but it has been conditioned to chase.... In sighthounds, the instinct is already there... the trainer/owner conditions the dog to do it consistantly and predictably.

Dog chases = rewarded = dog chases = rewarded = dog chases = rewarded = the trainer/owner has conditioned the dog to respond in a particular manner.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Cordelia

[corvus]

Hmm, interesting.

I don't think it's force, and here's why:

My mother's little Vallhund Pyry has a huge prey drive. I have seen him do incredible things trying to get at a small furry animal. He has never been encouraged, but he really doesn't need it. He once tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get to a possum that was stuck there. When he sees my rabbits you can see he starts thinking about how he's going to get to them. He's already at the cage trying to find an opening before he has really started thinking, but you can see that he's running through possibilities and trying them. Give him long enough and I'm confident he would find a way even if he had to pry the bars apart. He certainly didn't start with pulling the wall off the garage for the possum. That came several hours after he discovered it (the possum was okay in the end - we pulled it out by the tail and set it free in the front yard).

So, he thinks. He doesn't just react, although the start is a reaction.

Secondly, he does call it quits on his own. He once chased a rat into the wood pile by the BBQ. He knew it was in there and spent all day trying to get to it. The next day, he was at it again. It started raining. Halfway through the day he was seen standing on the woodpile in the rain staring off into the distance. This dog LOATHES water. He would do just about anything to stay out of the rain. Anyway, he gave up and went inside. He went back out again once or twice, but gave it up by the end of the day. His prey drive is seriously intense, but he still thinks even when he's discovering superhero strength to get to that prey.

When you put a small animal in front of him, he can choose whether to go for it or not. He will always choose to go for it at least at the start, but he has the power to choose to give it up at any time; he just really doesn't want to. Putting an animal in front of him is not forcing him to hunt because thought hasn't abandoned him, but he sure wouldn't choose to not hunt. That's the way I reason it, anyway.

My mother's other dog will chase things until she can't physically put one foot in front of the other anymore. She walks like a drunk. But at that point she does stop and lie down. I guess that you can get dogs that won't and will keep running until they run themselves to the ground, and if you have a dog like that I think you do "force" them when you get them worked up to maximum drive. It's probably a lot more compulsive than either of my mother's dogs.

[jesomil]

Hmmm interesting.

With my boy, I dont believe he has a choice when it comes to his prey item. He would chase it till he died. I dont think it would be posssible for him to ever switch off from it unless his body started faltering.

I could go outside in 44 degree heat like today and his focus would not waver.

Same as when he is working stock. He could never stop, I always have to monitor him and tie him up when he needs a break.

I dont believe it is force as he gets satisfaction from it but at the same time, he cant stop himself.

[Just Midol]

It's called Conditioning, Midol. There's no 'force' about it. The dog still has 'the choice' not chase... but it has been conditioned to chase.... In sighthounds, the instinct is already there... the trainer/owner conditions the dog to do it consistantly and predictably.

Dog chases = rewarded = dog chases = rewarded = dog chases = rewarded = the trainer/owner has conditioned the dog to respond in a particular manner.

Did you even read my post?

When you increase a dogs drive to the point he'll do anything to obtain the prey item, like in greyhound racing, is it still a choice when the dog chases it or have you increased his instinctual desires and conditioned him to the point that you no longer believe he has a choice.

It's not a question of whether you are physically forcing the dog to chase. It's a philosophical question and nowhere near as simple as you're making it sound.

Jesomil, how isn't that forcing him to? Did you build his drive and condition him to do it? Having you trained him so that there really is no other option? Couldn't that be considered force? If I train my dog with an e-collar to sit, every time he doesn't sit he gets a zap. Done properly once I remove the collar he'll still sit. I don't touch him, I don't do anything. When I say sit am I forcing him to sit? He can't reason, in his mind, if he doesn't sit he is going to get a zap. Isn't this sort of the same thing?

Corvus, that's a completely different scenario. Lets say you were sadistic and used live rats in building drive. Every day you'd throw a rat out, you somehow controlled the rat. You'd let the dog chase it for a few minutes and when he looks like he is trying hard you let him get one bite and then remove the rat. You repeat it over and over day after day, for years. Your dog gets no other stimulation through the day except chasing this rat. One day it's raining, you release the rat outside and open the door for your dog to get out. You've built his desire to catch this rat to insane heights, possible 100 times higher than his current prey levels.

Does your dog have a choice? The instinct to chase the rat is going to overcome everything. He won't be able to think.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Just Midol

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli, you cant force a dog into drive or condition drive when it isn't there. In dogs not trained through drive the dog has very little choice when it goes into drive, the trigger (rabbit?) being chased for example has more control over the dog than the dog does.

[Vickie]

So the answer in whether there is a choice lies in the degree of training?

Can you not take an ex racing greyhound and teach it a recall in a paddock where there is a rabbit? Is it possible?

Working sheepdogs are regularly started in a paddock and their instinct & drive allows them to work without training.

Then at some point, they need to learn to call off sheep and work off balance. After being allowed to do whatever comes natural for months, they need to learn command over instinct (& over drive I guess).

I have no doubt Trim would work sheep until her body gave in if I let her. As we have done some training, I feel I am giving her a choice but the choice is whether to work the way she wants, or to work (or not work) the way I want. I am not forcing her to work, but I am letting her work.

If I kept working her to the point that her body gave in, then I could see how that would be a form of force or compulsion. If I were to ask her to work in 40 deg heat for 20 minutes then that would be unfair & I have no doubt she would do it, but she is not conditioned physically to do so. There are other dogs who are physically conditioned & would cope just fine with this.

I guess it is the same with greyhounds, you would assume they are conditioned to run a race in hot conditions, otherwise there would be an uproar surely?

There have been sheepdogs work & run trials with broken legs & in pain. It is hard to say whether they are forced to do it or whether doing it is more important than giving in to pain.

I know it is different, but is it that different to humans? Haven't we all done something that we wanted really badly despite pain we are in or conditions we face at the time. Athletes regularly do the impossible with an injury through sheer determination & want.

[Steve K9Pro]

So the answer in whether there is a choice lies in the degree of training?

K9: sort of, training increases the dogs mental capacity which enables the dog to progress throughout the modes of drive with control.

V: Can you not take an ex racing greyhound and teach it a recall in a paddock where there is a rabbit? Is it possible?

K9: Yes of course, but this can be done sveral ways, the most common being to add aversives to raise the dogs threshold to prey drive. Meaning the dog begins to see the prey item as something that leads to pain no prey drive satisfaction. There are of course other ways & some people will tell you that it isnt possible at all.

Working sheepdogs are regularly started in a paddock and their instinct & drive allows them to work without training.

K9: Their instict allows them to triger prey drive, the rest is trained in.

Then at some point, they need to learn to call off sheep and work off balance. After being allowed to do whatever comes natural for months, they need to learn command over instinct (& over drive I guess).

K9: If a young dog was let out to sheep & it was harrassing attacking or biting the sheep, it wouldnt be out there for months doing this.

I guess it is the same with greyhounds, you would assume they are conditioned to run a race in hot conditions, otherwise there would be an uproar surely?

K9: The conditioning to work in extreme conditions isnt anything to do with choice, like our soldiers that were sent to the Middle East to become aclimatised to the weather. They already knew how to do their job, just needed to get the weather distraction under control.

No different to a Police dog that is trained to clkimb stairs etc, the drive reward may be waiting at the top of the stirs but some training is needed.

There have been sheepdogs work & run trials with broken legs & in pain. It is hard to say whether they are forced to do it or whether doing it is more important than giving in to pain.

K9: In drive peak the adrenalin flow is at its highest, in times of high adrenalin the pain threshold is raised considerably, this exists with all mammals including us.

I know it is different, but is it that different to humans? Haven't we all done something that we wanted really badly despite pain we are in or conditions we face at the time. Athletes regularly do the impossible with an injury through sheer determination & want.

K9: Adrenalin is a powerful chemical that can & will over ride pain.

[Lablover]

When you increase a dogs drive to the point he'll do anything to obtain the prey item, like in greyhound racing, is it still a choice when the dog chases it or have you increased his instinctual desires and conditioned him to the point that you no longer believe he has a choice.

I believe dogs are born with genetic drive. You can take IT out of them, but you cannot put IT in. Training/control with good timing is of course important.

How often do we hear of seriously injured high drive dogs, ignoring pain, whatever the health condition and/or injury, weather conditions, grounds, water etc. Repeated drills which bores the handlers quicker than a high drive dog.

Working - gaining rewards (feeling good) is a great dog's goal. We have a 15 year old labrador, she still wants to work and since her retirement, has been rewarded very very little, for her effort. She comes training, but in reality only when I place hidden retrieves, as she "steals" retrieving articles. She still swims with the older dogs, winter and summer.

[Quickasyoucan]

I know this is off topic but, understanding that drive is genetic, and that dog's can have varying degrees of it, is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life?? I don't have any experience of low drive dogs to really understand that concept.

Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form?

[Lablover]

I know this is off topic but, understanding that drive is genetic, and that dog's can have varying degrees of it, is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life?? I don't have any experience of low drive dogs to really understand that concept.

Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form?

Golly, I see dogs every time I am out in the public. Most pet owners prefer them, or complain when their dogs cause "problems", such as garden damage, dirt tracks caused by the dogs running around the fenced yards, chewing, digging etc.

Working dogs need a job/outlet.