Astrobella Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi, We have a 13 week old border collie x who was diagnosed with inflammatory/steroid responsive meningitis over the weekend. He's doing much better than he was (physically he's more steady on his feet, not complaining of neck pain on movement), but his behaviour has changed significantly. I understand that steroids have lots of side effects (like the excessive drinking and peeing), but the one that concerns us is his new habit of growling/barking/biting us at times. We feel that part of it is related to him being frustrated that he isn't allowed his usual freedoms (e.g. running around the yard, excessive playing) because we've been told to keep him relatively calm and quiet. He will mostly start this behaviour when he has been denied something. So far we have been walking away and ignoring him when he does this, but I'm starting to wonder if this is actually confirming a belief he has that he can control us? I'm also wondering about other peoples' experiences with this disease and changes that they may see in their dogs long term? Physical or behavioural? I realise he hopefully won't be on steroids indefinitely (as long as the symptoms of meningitis don't reappear when the dose is gradually lowered). Any advice or tips would be much appreciated - it's hard to get back into training mode after we were so worried we would lose him over the weekend...hopefully he continues to improve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest belgian.blue Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Real sorry to hear about your pup. This is the first I've heard about this disease so I will be reading with interest to the other replies. Best wishes for a full recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi. Hope your pup recovers quickly and fully :D I don't know much about meningitis---- but would assume that an infection so close to the brain could instigate some change in behaviour.. due to inflammation/swelling, putting pressure on parts of the brain? What did the vet say about these behaviours? I would be getting him some kongs,etc- and filling them and freezing them, so he can occupy himself without needing walk/active play as much... he may be well be responding to loss of freedom... but it may also be due to the disease... sorry, can't help any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Did they do a spinal tap to diagnose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobella Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 Yup they did a spinal tap on Sunday night - just inflammatory cells in the CSF, no sign of bacteria or parasites. It sounds like we were pretty lucky - it seems that it often takes them a while to decide to do this diagnostic procedure (I guess because of the risks associated with it). But now we're left with the prospect of long term steroids (and the side effects/issues with long term use) and some personality changes that will hopefully not become problematic later on. He hasn't had his 3rd vaccination and had just started puppy school - now he can't be around dogs for a few weeks (because his immune system is supressed and is likely to catch anything and everything) so he's unlikely to be particularly well socialised in the next month or two, in addition to his increased aggressiveness I don't know what to do! It's a bit of a catch 22 - protect his immune system and maybe end up with an aggressive dog who doesn't do well around others, or risk him being around dogs at puppy school and learning to socialise more appropriately. Any opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) With steroids I assume you mean prednisolone/ cortisone - little blue tablets? I had a dog on this for an extended period and there was a minimal side effect of polydipsia/polyuria but nothing major. I never noticed any behavioural changes like you have described but what you have experienced may relate more to usual puppy behaviour. It is important for any dose of cortisone to be reduced gradually to allow the adrenal gland to kick back into production - also important not to miss a dose. One thing I did notice was being more susceptible to changes in temperature so take care in the heat. Edited January 29, 2009 by Danois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ish Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I've got a 15 month old GSD who is recovering from steriod responsive meningitis. He's currently on 2 tablets a day and will be for a few more weeks before the dose is lowered again. When he first started on the coristone (6 tablets a day), he was really hard to deal with because he was STARVING (so he thought!), and always wanting to drink, peeing like a racehorse etc With the reduction in medication has come less of these things - he's now drinking and peeing normally, still quite hungry but not screaming every time the fridge is opened anymore!! He's very food aggressive at the moment but I'm leaving him until he's off the meds to deal with it because I don't think its fair to tell him off when his body thinks he's so hungry. He's fine with my other dogs, as long as no food is involved. My vet said I couldn't take him out until he was completely off the cortisone, which is months Best wishes for your pups recovery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Hey Ish - by no means second guessing your vet here but I had Angs on cortisone for 9 months before he died and I was never told not to take him out. I knew his immune system was suppressed so was more selective where we went. So no random dogs at the dog park but played with ones we knew and walked him on the pavements etc. Edited to add - at his worst Angs was on 160mg, stablising dose was 120mg and everyday dose was 40mg (70kg dog). Edited January 29, 2009 by Danois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ish Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Oh ok, thats interesting! I asked my vet to confirm when we went back a week after Monza started his meds and he told me again, not to take him anywhere but my place until he was off the cortisone. I've taken him to my parents place but no where else. He's 32kg and on 40mg a day at the moment - perhaps when it drops down further I'll start taking him out to safe places. Thanks Danois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Oh ok, thats interesting! I asked my vet to confirm when we went back a week after Monza started his meds and he told me again, not to take him anywhere but my place until he was off the cortisone. I've taken him to my parents place but no where else. He's 32kg and on 40mg a day at the moment - perhaps when it drops down further I'll start taking him out to safe places. Thanks Danois bear in mind that you have a puppy though so their immune system is even more susceptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) From memory the 'standard' treatment is 1mg per kgs. Angs was around 12 months when he started on cortisone and was 21 months when I lost him. And he had not had any vaccinations after the 16 week one (ie no annual vac). I don't recall Angs 'catching' anything - not even KC. Edited to say - it might be different because of the meningitis but if it solely based on the fact of the cortisone Edited January 29, 2009 by Danois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I don't know specifically about steriod responsive meningitis but I had a dog with bacterial meningitis that had brain damage from it. The fluid chamber in the centre of the brain was blocked with scar tissue from the meningitis causing a huge ammount of outward pressure. My dog attacked me quite badly and his reaction was that of a dog in immense pain at the time. He had been acting strangely for a while and we made the decision to pts as he was obviously in pain and was dangerous to handle. The autopsy revealed the scar tissue from the meningitis and as my vet commented "even if we had known what the problem was and could have tried to fix it, the dog could not have told us if the pain was gone and we would not have known if he was safe to be around". It broke my heart to lose my special obedience boy in this way at just 5 years of age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Are you sure he didn't just injured himself in play? Was he with an older dog who could have bowled him over and caused injury to nerves in neck? Just asking as had it happen to a puppy that I had. Emergency vet was quick to diagnose meningitis but I questioned why it would come on so suddenly. One minute a bouncy pup, five minutes later one who couldn't walk or move at all. I was a bit wary about giving a 12 week old the dye test so advised them I would take her home and crate her and take her to my vet in the morning. She had shown signs of getting some motion back and there was no temperature at all. Once I calmed down and thought about it, it seems the alpha bitch in the yard had put her down hard on the concrete. Took her to the chiro and after three sessions back to normal. If there were no signs of bacteria or parasites but just inflamatory, thought it could be through injury? Hope your baby is well soon and continues to recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I'm really sorry to hear about your pup. I hope he recovers soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobella Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 Marley (the puppy - no...not because of the movie...) is on 15mg cortisone twice daily - since he is only about 7.5 kg I understand it's a pretty high dose. We're going back to the vet tomorrow so will ask about when he may be able to be around other dogs. In terms of how he got it...we did ask the vet if it could be from injury (he actually ran into a wall head first earlier on the day we first noticed something really wrong), but they didn't seem to think it was related. A few days before the 'head butt' he'd been taken to the vet for a rash, and had presented with a temperature and a fast pant rate that day (was put on antibiotics). He had actually been a little more quiet the couple of days before the rash as well, so perhaps it was developing and the head trauma aggravated it. They did confirm it was meningitis though on the spinal tap. His constant peeing though is getting frustrating! We were having some success with toilet training before this (he was mostly going on newspapers in the laundry) but now he just pees all through the house (funnily enough he will still do all his poops in the laundry). We're not too sure how to tackle this one, since he would probably fill the laundry up in an hour and can't be let outside in the yard by himself yet (when we are around we do take him out periodically though). But peeing every 5-10 minutes it's very hard to police! Any ideas?? Thanks everyone for your input and well wishes, it's good to have people to discuss this with outside my immediate family! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Poor little boy. Ask your vet if you could take him back to puppy classes as all pups there have to be vaccinated. Perhaps invest in getting a trainer to come out to you to show you how to train him. With the toileting. Could you set a temporary fence, wooden stakes & plastic fencing, right outside your back door so that he only has access to a small area of the yard? That way you could take him outside to toilet. Get some baby gates or something similar and block off your house so that he only has access to a small area. Or even puppy pen him when you are not at home or not able to supervise. I would suggest to continue taking him outside and not getting him to toilet on newspaper as this only confuses pups into thinking that it is ok to toilet inside. If you do not want to spend $80+ to buy a puppy pen Bunnings has similar wire panels that are supposed to be used to make compost boxes out of. You will find them in the compost bin section for about $40. You could buy some belly bands that he could wear with pads in them but if he is urinating alot I would be slightly concerned that he would get urnie burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I really don't know much at all about this disease, but I do understand that one of the symptoms is hyper-reactivity to touch. That could be bringing on the aggression, perhaps? I'm not sure how long the meds take to ease the situation and this is something I'd suggest you talk to your Vet about. Try as you can to avoid doing the things that triggers your pup's aggression until questions such as this can be determined, so as for the aggression, if it is caused by the condition, does not become an ingrained learned behaviour. I'm also not sure ..... but have you checked out if there is any relationship between SRMA and Hypothyroidism? I might be completely off the mark, but I thought I recalled reading something on it somewhere along the line. Has your pup recently received vaccination? I understand that SRMA can be triggered by things such as this. I expect your Vet has talked to you about this already anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Astrobella - unfortunately there is nothing that can be done re the frequent urination and please do not be tempted to limit water to control it - it is the unfortunate side effect. As the dose reduces then the frequency etc will decrease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobella Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 He had his 2nd vaccination on the 2nd January so it wasn't particularly close to his showing symptoms. He went back to the vet today - she was pretty pleased with him. He just has a bit of wobbiliness in his left hind leg otherwise looking pretty good. We've been told that he needs to be on a lower dose of steroid before he can have contact with other dogs or to get his final vaccination. The vet surgery we go to has been really good to us - they realise we spent a lot of money at the emergency vet so they haven't been charging for check ups, just meds. This at least helps a lot! We had a dog trainer come over today (from puppy school) and gave us some help which is good. But now we have been finding chicken bones or something in the back yard and have no idea where they're coming from - they all seem to be at the bottom of a big tree in our yard, I wonder if it's from people throwing them or birds or cats or who knows what?? Will be extremely PO'd if it's people... He got to one while the trainer was there and we weren't able to get it out of his mouth so I'm really feeling ggrrrr..... He also then vomitted today for the first time, our feeling is that it's because he has had so much to eat today (from us, the vet, the trainer, his normal brekky).... But we're watching him carefully in case anything else appears off. We hope he keeps on improving and nothing else comes along to make his life miserable... he hasn't had a good run at all yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Astrobella .... I'm not a Vet and certainly in no position to formerly advise you, but I'd be strongly suggesting you do some really good research and ask around before you go ahead with another vaccination. Your pup has had 2 vaccs and IMO and from what I have read, that is often sufficient for cover. My boy had 2 x C3's and that was it for his puppy vaccination regime. I would never give a dog a vaccination when there is the complication of another illness. Perhaps send an email to Dr. Jean Dodds - Vet in the USA highly regarded for her research and knowledge in the field of vaccinations and affects of vaccinations on dogs. Let her know what's going on and ask her. I am certain she'll recommend to not have a 3rd vaccination administered. 2nd January to the date on which you posted is not, IMO, all that far away for the vaccination to be considered a possible trigger to your dog's condition. Just my opinion though. Again, check perhaps with Dr. Jean Dodds and see what she thinks is possible, but if the vaccination is the trigger for the meningitis, loading him with yet another can't be helping him. I know you're already doing what and everything you can to help him. And it's good that you feel you are receiving the help you need from your Vet. But not all Vets are yet open to the "over-vaccination" theory and stick to the usual vaccination protocol that has been routinely recommended now for decades regardless. No offence to your Vet. But please, just check it out. If you would like Jead Dodd's email and can't find it by googling, let me know and I'll send you the addy. Edited January 31, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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