haven Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I guess I just feel very disappointed that I haven't been able to get her used to being around my dad. It upsets me to see her reaction every time he comes over and every time I attempt to do something to help. I feel very helpless about it all. This could very well be part of the problem if she is picking up on your stress. How is she when you are not around, or when it is just her and your Dad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 That's interesting to hear, is there anything that can be done about it? I don't think we'll ever see complete rehabilitation but I remain hopeful that she can improve. I mean, she already has improved with Michael, Shmoo, my aunt, a family friend, just never with my dad.all. Not that I am aware of unfortunately. It explains a lot if it is the case because I know with Loki there are so many behaviours and reactions I see in him that just can't be explained because he simply doesn't have normal responses anymore. I've consulted with some very knowledgable trainers and behaviourists and despite having lived with him for 8 years or so now he's still a mystery in so many ways and he probably always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 but shows zero improvement with randoms on the street but then my goal while walking her was never to fix that, so I've done nothing to fix it. Then I wouldnt be walking the dog. If you are not doing anything to decrease her anxiety or show her the right way to cope with stimuli while out on a walk then you are 1) not building a well foundationed trusting relationship between you and the dog and 2) cementing her behavior. Socialisation can be quality over quantity. Better to work on her at home then take her out and stress her more. After two years of this behavior I would be getting a professional behaviorist to come in and see whats going on. She may even require medication whilst she is being trained in order to get her over any peaks she has difficulty crossing. No she may never be the picture perfect dog, hey actually very few dogs are. But living in anxiety and fearful reactions is not very nice and two years with slow improvement for me would warrant professional help. It's either walk her or make no progress. In the house when Josie and her Mum are around she won't come to me & I make no progress. I can't kick them out of their house. It's josies dog but I'd be 100% against medicating in this situation. Her recovery time is fairly quick if I distracted her, without a distraction I doubt she would have recovered before we returned home. This is where I jogged, she seemed to forget about the bad thing she just encountered and settle back down. She did come to me for "protection" but I didn't want to spend the entire walk with her scared shitless between my legs and me ignoring her because she was being fearful. I still don't see how that'd be a favourable outcome but maybe I'm looking at it from a weird perspective. I think I get where you're coming from. Loki is exactly the same. Whe he goes into shutdown all he wants to do is shrink and hide between my legs in major avoidance and the only thing that breaks this behaviour is to get him moving, then it is like he snaps out of it and starts thinking again. The important thing is to have control, it shouldn't be a headlong flight. Personally I made it a recall or heel of even just a few steps and usually parallel to what we were working with. I agree with Nekhbet also about potentially not walking her. It may be worth thinking about the kind of stress you're putting Chelsea under for what results you can realistically expect and deciding if it is really worth it. Sure you can do the hard yards and try to solve the problem, but in some cases it's easiest on the dog to manage the behaviour instead by simply avoiding the situations in which the issues occur. This may or may not be possible with Chelsea and it may or may not be what you want to do. In most cases I'd advocate training and socialisation, but in a few genuinely severe cases, where you're looking at a literal lifetime of stress and work to get and then maintain a standard that will probably never be much more than uneasy tollerance that can be avoided simply be keeping the dog at home then I'm all for a management soltuion if it suits all parties. She's already improved to the point where she is relatively comfortable with me in the house, rather than requiring her to be crated every time I am in the main room. It's really for her benefit that we get her comfortable with a few select people. With the stress on the walk, since I run her once she gets stressed it doesn't last long and to me, the stress I've put her through in our walks was acceptable for the gains I've made. I'll admit to only reading the first few post so forgive me if I am flogging a dead horse.I would suggest STARTING the walk with a jog/run. This will get her tired and she wont be able to put up AS much of a fight. As for not talking to or petting her...I would do both. A nice even voice. Not baby talk or yelling...just normal. And keep in mind if you panic/think/tense up and think someone or something will put her on edge then YOU are ALREADY telling her to be on edge. Thats not her doing. Thats her picking up on your feelings. By running away from those things she will connect the dots that things that put me on edge (ppl, cars, carts, bikes ect.) means i should run away from them. Even talking to her initially would stress her, same with looking at her. Acknowledging her in any way would stress her out which is why I took it very slowly and ignored her & gave no interaction on walks. After a few, I noticed her starting to calm down which is when I'd speak to her & touch her. As I said, if I didn't run her she wouldn't calm down and then the rest of the walk would be wasted and I might as well go straight home. I'd either run her BEFORE the "scary thing" so she never actually got nervous or afterwards to calm her down. I was very careful with my timing so I wouldn't reinforce running from "scary" things. As far as petting goes start off under the chin. Not the top of the head (where most ppl go for first) or 'sneaking up behind' to pet her back. Start off simple and let her SEE what is going on. Give her a treat and a good girl when she doesnt high tail it the other way. And never let anyone 'chase' her to pet her. 1. it will scare her and give her a reason to be afraid and 2. their likely to get bit if they get her pinned. I've never patted her over the head at all, in fact, I make Josie put the leash and collar on as the movements to put them on requires a hand over the head which is indimidating. I've patted her side and under the chin/neck. When she does met new ppl or something that scares her DONT let her lean on you (or anyone that she 'claims/trust') push her away or extend your arm with the leash so she HAS to stand on her own. She needs to build confidence in HERSELF and not try to hide behind/lean on someone. Dont let her just have her way if she doesn't want to see someone. Put her one lead and give the person a treat. It'll take a while and they may end up just holding their hand out flat just to get her to come over the first handful of times but basically she'll learn that ppl are not going to hurt her. When she does let someone pet her or goes up to someone for a sniff give her the "good girl!' and FEEL good about it! Thats a key factor. If your thinking/still waiting for her to zoom off the other way after the sniff/pet then she is very likely to do so. Picture the outcome you WANT not the one you fear will happen.However I am assuming she is not a fear bitter? To tell you the truth, I'm not comfortable pushing her away from me. I ignore her when she does it, but pushing could cause the gains I've made disappear as she is only chosing me as the lesser of two evils. When new people go to Josies house she is crated. When I'd walk past a scary person I wouldn't walk around them. Though I walk on the road so they'd be a decent distance away but if she tries to pull away I don't let her, but anything other than that (aka my physically doing something) could result in backwards steps rather than forwards steps. She won't approach a flat hand at all, she'll only take food from me if I'm holding it in my fingers towards her, but when I first met her I could sit there for hours with the food and her on a leash and she'd just either stare at me, or keep looking away. I don't think food will help with most people. She's definitely not a fear biter. IMO, she'd never bite. I don't live with her though so I've only a limited picture of her behaviour. I don't get nervous/upset when she doesn't behave how I want so I don't have that issue with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'd be unlikely to push her away if she retreats to you when she is frightened. We had to teach Georgie to do this (come to us) rather than panic bolt- and i know which one i'd prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iltby Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) I guess I just feel very disappointed that I haven't been able to get her used to being around my dad. It upsets me to see her reaction every time he comes over and every time I attempt to do something to help. I feel very helpless about it all. This could very well be part of the problem if she is picking up on your stress. How is she when you are not around, or when it is just her and your Dad? Sorry, I should've worded that better. I just mean that I get upset when I think about not having been able to help. Generally when he comes around I remain very relaxed and casual. When she's left with my dad alone she remains very anxious and gets stressed to the point where she won't eat or drink - when he's around she mostly gets too focused on him to care or worry about anything else. That's interesting to hear, is there anything that can be done about it? I don't think we'll ever see complete rehabilitation but I remain hopeful that she can improve. I mean, she already has improved with Michael, Shmoo, my aunt, a family friend, just never with my dad.all. Not that I am aware of unfortunately. It explains a lot if it is the case because I know with Loki there are so many behaviours and reactions I see in him that just can't be explained because he simply doesn't have normal responses anymore. I've consulted with some very knowledgable trainers and behaviourists and despite having lived with him for 8 years or so now he's still a mystery in so many ways and he probably always will be. That's how I feel about Chelsea really. I understand one side of her, the side I get to see when it's just Mum and me in the house, but when strangers are around she's a completely different dog and I really don't understand what's going on in her head that makes her so terrified and act the way she does. I would truly like to know what happened to her before we got her. Thanks again for your input. Edited January 30, 2009 by iltby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) Its hard when you deal with a dog with extreme fears- i have lots of people who say they've had a dog like Georgie who was just 'a bit timid'- but the reality is there are very few dogs like her, Haven's dog and perhaps Chelsea. A bit timid is not the same From what you've said though- i do think you may be incomplete flooding her without realising it. Does/ have Midol and Shmoo stayed at the home for longer periods at a time than your Dad? Edited January 30, 2009 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 Its hard when you deal with a dog with extreme fears- i have lots of people who say they've had a dog like Georgie who was just 'a bit timid'- but the reality is there are very few dogs like her, Haven's dog and perhaps Chelsea. A bit timid is not the same From what you've said though- i do think you may be incomplete flooding her without realising it. Does/ have Midol and Shmoo stayed at the home for longer periods at a time than your Dad? I've stayed for one block of around 10 days, and this was 5-6 days. Her dad has looked after Chelsea for periods of time, but she wouldn't eat or drink at all when she was left with him from what I recall so they avoid doing that now. When I am staying there we probably are semi-flooding her, but I thought flooding her with me would be if I was the only one to do everything with her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Not necesarily Midol- would depend on the level of fear and specific triggers for fear. What period of time has ILTBY's Dad looked after her? Days/ weeks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 Not entirely sure. Probably around a week? Josie will be back soon with a specific length but I'm fairly certain I remember 6 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 And she didn't eat or drink the whole time? Could have been imcomplete flooding throughout the stay if she was coming into contact- fear rising and then being removed/ going to backyard etc. I ask about this because i know that this is what had happened to Georgie in her previous home. Its really easy to do without realising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iltby Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Its hard when you deal with a dog with extreme fears- i have lots of people who say they've had a dog like Georgie who was just 'a bit timid'- but the reality is there are very few dogs like her, Haven's dog and perhaps Chelsea. A bit timid is not the same From what you've said though- i do think you may be incomplete flooding her without realising it. Does/ have Midol and Shmoo stayed at the home for longer periods at a time than your Dad? Yeah, that's exactly it - people often can't grasp the reality. Midol has stayed here for longer periods than my dad, but not regularly. Only three times in 2 years I think, and Shmoo's only ever stayed for one day/night. Not necesarily Midol- would depend on the level of fear and specific triggers for fear. What period of time has ILTBY's Dad looked after her? Days/ weeks? God Michael's memory is bad Not 6 days, it was an evening and a morning - I'd guess about 12 hours if that. She ate half her dinner, but when we got back we don't think she'd had anything to drink the whole time hence why we don't want to leave her alone with him for a larger period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 I was a little off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Totally understand that you wouldn't want to leave chelsea for longer when she is that stressed- and i would never suggest that you do, but imcomplete flooding and sensitisation sounds more and more likely. Have you seen a behaviourist with her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iltby Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) We haven't actually - I talked to Steve about it a year and a bit ago and he said he'd see her but if she wouldn't let him near her there wouldn't be much he could do. It would be worth a shot though I guess. ETA: I guess there has been a lot of inconsistent flooding over the past two years. It's just difficult to be consistent with it, or to not do it at all, as it's hard to revolve your life around your dog. Also, because I've been sick for the whole time we've had her, having guests or people staying with us is a very irregular thing, so I guess when it happens she does get flooded all of a sudden and then it won't happen again for another few months. I hope that makes sense. Edited January 30, 2009 by iltby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Using an anti-anxiety drug (clomicalm) or even a very low dose of valium could be beneficial in relaxing her enough so she is able to learn. Highly stressed animals can develop learned helplessness and lose the ability to learn new behaviours or tasks... medicating to decrease those anxiety/stress levels allows an animal to be opened up to new behaviours, re-training and desensitisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iltby Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Thanks for that Cordy, that sounds like it could be promising. She was prescribed Valium once before but I don't think I was consistent enough with it. I'll talk to the vet about it again. Do you think regular rescue remedy would be of any use? Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Valium is no good as it blocks short term memory so it isn't a long term solution for learning new behaviours. It also has a very short life in dogs as they metabolise it a lot faster than humans do so you would need to be medicating her a few times a day and ataxia is a common side effect which wouldn't help her stress levels. I'd probably try 5HTP or even prozac before I tried Clomicalm if I were you, it's cheaper and from what I've heard (and experienced) yeilds a much better result. There are also a lot of herbal remedies and dietary supplements that could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Midol- Whats her drive? What does she love more then anything else? I would start every walk with a run just to get rid of extra energy. I guess I geared most of my post to ILTBY seeing as the dog doesn't fully trust you. To be honest, I don't think much other then the run and the positive feelings apply to you out of the post. Sorry about that. Maybe even putting the collar and lead on yourself would reassure her to follow you. It would make it less of a pass off and more of a "I am going to lead you." However, I think facing things that she fears the most needs to be done with her and ILTBY. She is her 'pack leader' therefore she will have more trust in her unless ILTBY tenses up and gives off stressed/negative vibes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iltby Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Okay, thanks Haven....as I said I'll talk to the vet about it and see what they suggest. MSOM, it would be a toss up between food and prey drive but I would say food conquers. She does love her toys, but she's much more likely to take food from Mike than to have a game with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my_sibe_owns_me Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Have you tried really tasty food? Like hot dogs/ chicken/ steak? You could use the prey drive. When she lets someone pet her or goes up to some thing/one that scares her tug on the toy or toss her the ball as a praise. Edited January 31, 2009 by my_sibe_owns_me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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