Please Review How I Am Handling Chelsea.

[Just Midol]

Those who have followed ILTBYs Chelsea issues will know what's going on, but for those who don't, she has an extreme fear of people, especially males.

She's improved slightly every time I've come but this time I've implemented some ideas. This post is in chronological order, so if something later in the post contradicts something earlier, it's because things changed since then.

For the last few days, I've taken her for walks. I have not spoken to or touched her at all and just let her get comfortable around me. I've let her sniff trees and investigate things. I've sat down a few times on the walk and just sat there to let her get comfortable, she did not pull on the leash when sitting down. I limited how far she could move away from me to about 1m. She usually went as far out as possible with gentle pressure on the leash but not pulling. When she started to get nervous on these walks I'd break into a jog/slow run and it calms her down as she loves running. She gets nervous very easily, a person walking past, a car, a noise. A dog barking can also cause her to get nervous. I try and get her jogging BEFORE she gets nervous but sometimes it's sudden and I don't have time. If I see someone approaching I move over and jog. She'll see them and get visibly distressed but not to the level she would have.

In between walks I've let her approach me to get treats. Usually just schmackos. She has gone from not wanting to approach me to being willing to approach me if she can visibly see she'll get a reward from it.

Today however, when we first started she wouldn't come out of the house with me. Josies Dad is also here though which added to the stress. We ended up getting Josie and her mum to encourage her out, then on the side of the road I took the leash and slowly moved away. She was semi-happy to walk away with me but turned back a few times for a few seconds. But once we started moving she was happy enough. On the walk I started using gentle praise. She will hold the heel position (not heeling, but in that position) with a loose leash, which is a huge improvement. If I sit down and she moves to the leash end (6ft I assume) and call her name she'll actually turn and come to me, but won't stay next to me - she isn't moving to the end of the leash to get away from me but rather to sniff and look around. But she is coming to me without any pressure which is a MAJOR improvement. So she not only comes to me for treats, but she'll come to me without them.

I also touched her whilst walking, she felt it, acknowledged it by looking at me but sort of "shrugged" it off. When she starts getting more distressed/nervous/uncomfortable I can see it in her body language, and she was rather indifferent with my touching her.

This only applies when we are out of Josies house and alone. When inside, if out of her crate, she'll move away from me to somewhere she considers "safe". She comes far closer to me than she used to, and isn't overly distressed like she used to be. Before, she'd pace around the house constantly and would stare at me 24/7. She is still cautious, but is happy to remain in the same room and will come within 1.5-2m of me, even walk past me sometimes (brushing up against me).

I can visibly see improvements, so I know for certain that I am not doing things wrong. But what things do you think I could try or not do? Obviously you can't give specific advice as you don't know her nor have you seen her but I'll take your ideas in and make a judgment on whether I feel comfortable doing it to her.

I leave tomorrow, so can't really do much more but I'm still interested. I reckon if I kept this up for a few weeks she'd be comfortable enough to approach me inside as well. I don't think it's possible to fix her around all males, but there is no reason to.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Just Midol

[iltby]

I'll just add that when we move out together we might think about bringing Chelsea to live with us for a few weeks - unless anyone thinks that would be a bad idea? From my perspective she improves just by being around people. We just had my aunt down from my 18th and Chelsea got very comfortable with her, she had lots of cuddles and pats and would come to her when called.

[Nevafollo]

When we got my rescue dog sam he was extreamly fearly of EVERYONE. It took ages to get him to come around it took him two weeks to actually start approaching people and even then he would only approch me or mum. I started him at obedience straight away and that was good for his self esteem.

It took him a year and a half of dog training at dog school for him to let people approach him for stand for examination.

It took him about 6 months of constantly seeing my stepdad and brother everyday before he would happily approach them. All they did was ignore him and everything he did and just went about their daily routine. (and one day he just started going to them.)

You sound like you are doing everything you can for her to come around it may just take abit of time. I hope some one can help you guys more.

ETA one thing we did do was my stepdad and brother started to feed sam and because he loved food soooo much he start to get excited to see them when they had his bowl, not sure if it really helped but it seemed to.

Edited January 28, 2009 by sammy_ballerina

[iltby]

Thanks for that Sam. Chelse has now been around my dad nearly daily for two years with essentially no improvement, so I really can't figure that one out. She's improved with Michael, Shmoo, my aunt, one or two family friends, but will have nothing to do with my dad. He's a very gentle guy and has been willing to try taking her for small walks and also tried offering her food/feeding her on and off for the past year or so, lying on the ground (to reduce his 'threatening' appearance) and waiting for her to approach him, but there's been no improvement. The only reason I can put this down to is that he's very tall and quite sturdily built - I guess she could also have a bad association with a man like that.

We'll definitely keep doing what we've been doing in regards to Michael, but I'm at a loss as to what to do with my dad - I don't think she'll ever warm up to him at this point.

Edited January 28, 2009 by iltby

[Nekhbet]

After two years maybe you have to see if she is acting some things and genuinely showing fear at other times. Seems like the dog is having 100% of the say of how, when, where etc and only getting "come on, please" acting from people.

I would turn the tables. Your dad is the only one to feed her and he has the bowl near him while he's watching telly etc. When she's hungry enough she'll go there. I would have him ignore her more and not acknowledge her at all and watch her change. First she will pull out the shying behavior because that got her attention. Then she will be confused and wonder why her acts get her nothing.

Midol how you do the walks sounds like great progress, although work on getting her to look to you when she feels stressed and not jogging away from her source of anxiety. Lead and teach her that although she might feel stressed out the handler is to be trusted and nothing bad will happen.

[iltby]

She's been ignored by everyone for the past year or so - she only ever gets attention when she makes the effort to approach people. The fear around my dad is definitely genuine. She doesn't have any say in anything - if she wants to be reassured or comforted by us when strangers are around, we ignore her - we never reinforce her fear. Her 'shying behaviour' never gets her attention. If she decides that she doesn't want to be near strangers, she gets put in her crate and gets left out of everything - yes that's her decision, but it's also her loss. Honestly, and I don't mean to come across as rude, but I don't think you understand how fearful she really is - it's not an act to get attention and it's not her trying to manipulate us, it's a very genuine fear. Shmoo, Midol and a few others have experienced it and agree.

I'll get my dad to feed her for a few weeks and see what comes of it anyway.

Thanks.

Edited January 29, 2009 by iltby

[Cordelia]

If she decides that she doesn't want to be near strangers, she gets put in her crate and gets left out of everything - yes that's her decision, but it's also her loss

You've said she doesn't like being around new people so it isn't her loss at all. She's happier being away from that which worries/frightens her.... that said.. I wouldn't keep a very fearful/anxious dog around people she didn't know anyway, so putting her in a crate is safe for all concerned.

I would turn the tables. Your dad is the only one to feed her and he has the bowl near him while he's watching telly etc. When she's hungry enough she'll go there. I would have him ignore her more and not acknowledge her at all and watch her change. First she will pull out the shying behavior because that got her attention. Then she will be confused and wonder why her acts get her nothing.

I agree. Whilst you don't feel that her fear behaviour is an act, it does sound as though she has learnt to use it to her advantage.... ie: your dad does very little with her.

Getting him to be the only one allowed to feed her is a good idea... though I would go so far as suggesting that he hand feed her the first half her meal if he is willing to spend the time it will take to do it.... She might go hungry for a day or 2 before she ventures forth, but hunger will win out eventually. No eye contact or talking when he first starts though.

I don't agree with jogging when you start seeing her tense up, Midol.... you are conditioning her to run when she is frightened of someone or feeling anxious. Stop, have her sit beside you and teach her to focus on you (or whoever is walking her) instead.

[iltby]

Exactly, there's no point having her out if she's going to pace and hide the entire time - and when she is in her crate and covered up, she's missing out on all the attention and interaction the other two are getting, so I look at it as her loss.

I still honestly don't think she uses it to her advantage, we have tried to have her do things with my dad and none have resulted in anything positive. It's a difficult situation because while we do try to get her to push herself a bit, forcing her too much just freaks her out. Obviously my dad does do very little with her, and while I don't like it, I'm not going to force her to be near him because she simply gets her self into a state of panic.

Anyway, as I said we'll give the feeding idea a go - it's not forceful and it makes her decide whether she'll get over it and go near him. Thanks again.

Edited January 29, 2009 by iltby

[Cosmolo]

She sounds like Georgie- one of our dogs. Georgie's fear was so extreme that we had no choice but to flood her- otherwise she never would have chosen to interact with us, food or no food. She would have starved rather than approach OH. She still wouldn't eat in the presence of my OH (even at the other end of the house) for 6 months. I am definitely NOT recommending that you flood her as you must know what you're doing and when not done correctly, it will make it worse.

I am simply giving an example of another dog with extreme fear (not aggression) and what worked for her. Georgie is still fearful of those who she has never met but no longer panics, paces, bolts or shakes- people who she meets even infrequently she is okay with and people that she sees semi regularly she is becoming excellent with- friendly, approached for pats, cuddles etc.

She can now go for walks in most places without too much of a problem- when we started if she became scared, she would remain so for hours, despite the fact that the stimulus was gone. For instance walking down the street and a gate shut quickly- that was it for the next 2-3 hours. What is Chelsea's recovery tme like once she gets frightened by noise or object?

We had to flood her with very basic things to start with- such as my OH- we didn't have a choice because she and he had to live together and she would not come anywhere near him by choice to start with, i thought she was going to go through a window at the other end of the house to get away from him- even though he would be simply sitting on the couch or get up to get a drink etc. When we flooded her with strangers- she was not forced to interact with them, but over time she has chosen to. Food lures did not work at all for probably the first year but food can be used now in certain situations and she will take it from strangers or seek them out for food.

I wouldn't run her when she starts to get worried- she must be taught to turn to you for safety rather than run.

[Kelpie-i]

Here is the general "rule of thumb":

If a dog is genuinly fearful, then he or she will not take food, not matter how hungry they are. If the dog takes food, then you can safely assume that the behaviour is now one that is chosen and favourable to the dog.

It will be interesting to see if she eats in the presence of your dad.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[iltby]

Cosmolo, I guess that's mostly directed at Mike, but as I stated above I won't be flooding her - as you said, when not done correctly it can be counter productive. I think I could do properly but even then I don't believe it would improve things. It's just not a method I believe in.

Kelpie, I hadn't heard that before, I'll keep it in mind. So far she absolutely refuses to take any food or treats from my dad's hand, but has eaten a small amount of dinner in his presence. She will take treats from Mike and eat in his presence though, the fear is definitely at its worst around my father.

Edited January 29, 2009 by iltby

[Cosmolo]

Sorry i missed that bit- understand you wouldn't want to do it. Just thought hearing about a similar dog may give you some hope

Just a word of caution and something to consider though. Sometimes with extreme fears, you may be flooding without realising it and thus imcomplete flooding which will further sensitise her. Given that its been 2 years and she is no better with your dad, this may be a possibility.

[haven]

I've also heard that in dogs that suffer with chronic fear issues, constant stimulation of the flight or fight response results in an overproduction of cortisol which can permenantly damage the neural pathways, meaning that you may never see complete rehabilitation.

[Just Midol]

She sounds like Georgie- one of our dogs. Georgie's fear was so extreme that we had no choice but to flood her- otherwise she never would have chosen to interact with us, food or no food. She would have starved rather than approach OH. She still wouldn't eat in the presence of my OH (even at the other end of the house) for 6 months. I am definitely NOT recommending that you flood her as you must know what you're doing and when not done correctly, it will make it worse.

I am simply giving an example of another dog with extreme fear (not aggression) and what worked for her. Georgie is still fearful of those who she has never met but no longer panics, paces, bolts or shakes- people who she meets even infrequently she is okay with and people that she sees semi regularly she is becoming excellent with- friendly, approached for pats, cuddles etc.

She can now go for walks in most places without too much of a problem- when we started if she became scared, she would remain so for hours, despite the fact that the stimulus was gone. For instance walking down the street and a gate shut quickly- that was it for the next 2-3 hours. What is Chelsea's recovery tme like once she gets frightened by noise or object?

We had to flood her with very basic things to start with- such as my OH- we didn't have a choice because she and he had to live together and she would not come anywhere near him by choice to start with, i thought she was going to go through a window at the other end of the house to get away from him- even though he would be simply sitting on the couch or get up to get a drink etc. When we flooded her with strangers- she was not forced to interact with them, but over time she has chosen to. Food lures did not work at all for probably the first year but food can be used now in certain situations and she will take it from strangers or seek them out for food.

I wouldn't run her when she starts to get worried- she must be taught to turn to you for safety rather than run.

Her recovery time is fairly quick if I distracted her, without a distraction I doubt she would have recovered before we returned home. This is where I jogged, she seemed to forget about the bad thing she just encountered and settle back down. She did come to me for "protection" but I didn't want to spend the entire walk with her scared shitless between my legs and me ignoring her because she was being fearful. I still don't see how that'd be a favourable outcome but maybe I'm looking at it from a weird perspective.

Chelsea doesn't seem as bad as your boy was with me, she hasn't always been okay with taking food from me but will approach me for high value treats. I'm not a very intimidating person as well which helps a lot. Josies Dad is much bigger and more solid and probably appears more intimidating/dominant to her.

Personally, I don't have a real issue with flooding but I don't know how to do it properly so imo it'd be an unacceptable risk, that and she isn't my dog and Josie obviously doens't like flooding

Bed time now, will post more later if I remember to.

Haven, I don't expect that Chelsea will ever be completely rehabilitated, I just can't see it ever happening. She is improving with me, but shows zero improvement with randoms on the street but then my goal while walking her was never to fix that, so I've done nothing to fix it.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Just Midol

[Nekhbet]

but shows zero improvement with randoms on the street but then my goal while walking her was never to fix that, so I've done nothing to fix it.

Then I wouldnt be walking the dog. If you are not doing anything to decrease her anxiety or show her the right way to cope with stimuli while out on a walk then you are 1) not building a well foundationed trusting relationship between you and the dog and 2) cementing her behavior.

Socialisation can be quality over quantity. Better to work on her at home then take her out and stress her more.

After two years of this behavior I would be getting a professional behaviorist to come in and see whats going on. She may even require medication whilst she is being trained in order to get her over any peaks she has difficulty crossing. No she may never be the picture perfect dog, hey actually very few dogs are. But living in anxiety and fearful reactions is not very nice and two years with slow improvement for me would warrant professional help.

[sas]

I don't agree with jogging when you start seeing her tense up, Midol.... you are conditioning her to run when she is frightened of someone or feeling anxious. Stop, have her sit beside you and teach her to focus on you (or whoever is walking her) instead.

Agreed, I accidentaly created a conditioned behaviour that when I ran the dog looks behind to see what's coming, it took a while to re-condition that behaviour and that wasn't on a completely unstable dog.

Edited January 29, 2009 by sas

[haven]

Her recovery time is fairly quick if I distracted her, without a distraction I doubt she would have recovered before we returned home. This is where I jogged, she seemed to forget about the bad thing she just encountered and settle back down. She did come to me for "protection" but I didn't want to spend the entire walk with her scared shitless between my legs and me ignoring her because she was being fearful. I still don't see how that'd be a favourable outcome but maybe I'm looking at it from a weird perspective.

I think I get where you're coming from. Loki is exactly the same. Whe he goes into shutdown all he wants to do is shrink and hide between my legs in major avoidance and the only thing that breaks this behaviour is to get him moving, then it is like he snaps out of it and starts thinking again. The important thing is to have control, it shouldn't be a headlong flight. Personally I made it a recall or heel of even just a few steps and usually parallel to what we were working with.

I agree with Nekhbet also about potentially not walking her. It may be worth thinking about the kind of stress you're putting Chelsea under for what results you can realistically expect and deciding if it is really worth it. Sure you can do the hard yards and try to solve the problem, but in some cases it's easiest on the dog to manage the behaviour instead by simply avoiding the situations in which the issues occur. This may or may not be possible with Chelsea and it may or may not be what you want to do. In most cases I'd advocate training and socialisation, but in a few genuinely severe cases, where you're looking at a literal lifetime of stress and work to get and then maintain a standard that will probably never be much more than uneasy tollerance that can be avoided simply be keeping the dog at home then I'm all for a management soltuion if it suits all parties.

[iltby]

Sorry i missed that bit- understand you wouldn't want to do it. Just thought hearing about a similar dog may give you some hope

Just a word of caution and something to consider though. Sometimes with extreme fears, you may be flooding without realising it and thus imcomplete flooding which will further sensitise her. Given that its been 2 years and she is no better with your dad, this may be a possibility.

No, it did - sorry, I didn't word my post well. I was just agreeing with you that flooding isn't always effective.

Would you mind expanding on your last paragraph? For instance, what could we be doing to flood her subconsciously?

Thanks for your help!

I've also heard that in dogs that suffer with chronic fear issues, constant stimulation of the flight or fight response results in an overproduction of cortisol which can permenantly damage the neural pathways, meaning that you may never see complete rehabilitation.

That's interesting to hear, is there anything that can be done about it? I don't think we'll ever see complete rehabilitation but I remain hopeful that she can improve. I mean, she already has improved with Michael, Shmoo, my aunt, a family friend, just never with my dad.

Thinking about it, she definitely is better than when we first got her - I guess I just feel very disappointed that I haven't been able to get her used to being around my dad. It upsets me to see her reaction every time he comes over and every time I attempt to do something to help. I feel very helpless about it all.

Edited January 30, 2009 by iltby

[Cosmolo]

My brain is not working well in this heat so i will try to explain what i mean with an example-

Dog is in room with Dad. Dad stands or moves and dog becomes frightened. Fear is at a high enough level that dog is not coping and showing stress. Behaviour remains the same or increases within a minute or two. Dog is then removed or removes herself from situation. Because the level of fear did not reduce- even in part, sensitisation may occur causing the dog to be the same or worse next time.

Flooding usually involves the presenting stimuli that is too intense to counter condition at that point- with dogs that have extreme fear, the stimuli may not be deliberately set at that level but be too high to counter condition/ desensitise so flooding has commenced without that being your intention. The principle then still remains that if you remove the dog before the fear subsides, sensitisation will still occur.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

I'll admit to only reading the first few post so forgive me if I am flogging a dead horse.

I would suggest STARTING the walk with a jog/run. This will get her tired and she wont be able to put up AS much of a fight. As for not talking to or petting her...I would do both. A nice even voice. Not baby talk or yelling...just normal. And keep in mind if you panic/think/tense up and think someone or something will put her on edge then YOU are ALREADY telling her to be on edge. Thats not her doing. Thats her picking up on your feelings. By running away from those things she will connect the dots that things that put me on edge (ppl, cars, carts, bikes ect.) means i should run away from them.

As far as petting goes start off under the chin. Not the top of the head (where most ppl go for first) or 'sneaking up behind' to pet her back. Start off simple and let her SEE what is going on. Give her a treat and a good girl when she doesnt high tail it the other way. And never let anyone 'chase' her to pet her. 1. it will scare her and give her a reason to be afraid and 2. their likely to get bit if they get her pinned.

When she does met new ppl or something that scares her DONT let her lean on you (or anyone that she 'claims/trust') push her away or extend your arm with the leash so she HAS to stand on her own. She needs to build confidence in HERSELF and not try to hide behind/lean on someone. Dont let her just have her way if she doesn't want to see someone. Put her one lead and give the person a treat. It'll take a while and they may end up just holding their hand out flat just to get her to come over the first handful of times but basically she'll learn that ppl are not going to hurt her. When she does let someone pet her or goes up to someone for a sniff give her the "good girl!' and FEEL good about it! Thats a key factor. If your thinking/still waiting for her to zoom off the other way after the sniff/pet then she is very likely to do so. Picture the outcome you WANT not the one you fear will happen.

However I am assuming she is not a fear bitter?

Edited January 30, 2009 by my_sibe_owns_me