Another Sore Leg Story

[Shadowmum]

About two weeks ago we went on a picnic and took our 14month old pomeranian, Holly, with us. She had a ball and came home very tired, but otherwise fine - she had very 'physical' day running and swimming with us. the next morning she was limping on her front right paw. She would let us touch the leg and paw and move it so we monitored her, no walks for the day and decided if it was worse or not better the next day we'd take her to the vet. The next day she was fine. three evenings ago she came up the back steps, after I was grooming her outside, and walked into the house holding her back left leg up. I held her and gently massaged the leg and she was fine, yesterday afternoon she started to limp on the back right leg. I picked her up and massaged it gently and she walked off fine. This morning she she got up fine, I was outside hanging out washing and she came out to keep me company, she was sniffing something on the ground, looked up at me and lifted her back right leg. When the leg lifted it looked to me like a elastic band pulling it up - that is, it didn't come up slowly, it sort of snapped up. I did the usual massage and it's fine again.

Holly is a dog who gets a lot of attention, she likes attention and craves it and we love her and are happy to give it to her. We did wonder at first if she was attention seeking, as the morning after the picnic she received lots of attention and ...um.. treats But this has been too often for comfort and we are off to the vet.

Luxating Patella comes to mind? or could this be attention seeking? Any ideas? When Holly came to live with us we took her to our vet who did check her legs fro luxating patella and did say that they were fine...but still I have to wonder. If it is, what's going to happen? Would it be likely that he'll operate?

Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. By the way, she doesn't mind me massaging and stretching the leg (I am very gently) and she never complains at all.

[puggy_puggy]

See how she goes. If it continues then visit your vet.

Is she overweight at all?

What sort of diet do you feed?

Does she limp, bunny hop?

Luxating Patella's vary from Grade 1 to Grade 4. Because she is a young dog Grade 3 & 4 are usually candidates for surgery.

[Shadowmum]

We're going to the vet this afternoon. She's not overweight and we feed her on a diet of food I make - I do three different mixes beef, chicken and lamb (cooked - human quality). To each one add a different mix of vegetables and starches and skimmed milk powder and lactobacillus acidophilus and bifidobacterium. I also make her bickies and other treats.

What she does is actually bring the leg right off the ground and not use it at all. It looks like an elastic band that was stretched out, has come off and her leg is pulled up. It's happened twice today. This afternoon I was watching her and she's always lifted her right leg a little off the ground when she urinates (we've always said it was because she didn't want to get wee on her fur - she doesn't lift it right up like a male - just slightly and to the side - strange!). Anyway when she did this, it sort of snapped right up and she just looked at me as if to say "OMG, good grief", I massaged her leg and she was right again. She doesn't bunny hop and we've noticed it happens to both legs (not at the same time - to date, thankfully). I guess if that happened she'd bunny hop.

I'm hoping it's not Luxating Patella, but have an awful feeling it is. This wasn't a gradual thing either, one day she was fine and the next this was happening once, then again and more frequently. I hope it isn't anything more serious.

Poor baby, hates going to the doctor. She already knows something is going to happen, she's avoiding me like the plague.

Thanks for responding.

[Shadowmum]

We went to the vet. He said it was luxating patella. His perspective was that we should go home and think about whether we want to get it operated on as the success rate for such an operation is around 85%. He said that unless Holly was 85% of the time not able to bare weight on it we wouldn't need, in his opinion, to have the operation. He gave us some pain killers to give her and told us to think about it. I'm now really concerned and confused. I can't see this getting any better and I can't see leaving it being in her own better interests. I hate discount the vet's opinion, he says that mainly show dogs have to have this operation but for other dogs he'd question whether the proceedure was worth it in the long run. I'm thinking as Holly's only 14 months, this is something that will only get worse and will be very painful for her and more expensive for us the longer we leave it.

I'm thinking I should ring around for a second opinion.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[OSoSwift]

I would definately consider a second opinion. Considering she is young, corrective surgery earlier helps reduce the damage to the joint. I have seen quite a few young dogs that have had surgery and been really good. As for only show dogs having the surgery, It is potentially a hereditary problem and a dog with Luxating patella shouldn't be bred from at all. If you reduce the severity of any arthritis and have a dog that is more comfortable then I believe it is definately worth it. Good luck

[Shadowmum]

I would definately consider a second opinion. Considering she is young, corrective surgery earlier helps reduce the damage to the joint. I have seen quite a few young dogs that have had surgery and been really good. As for only show dogs having the surgery, It is potentially a hereditary problem and a dog with Luxating patella shouldn't be bred from at all. If you reduce the severity of any arthritis and have a dog that is more comfortable then I believe it is definately worth it. Good luck

Thanks for replying...we have no intentions of breeding our little girl. Holly is a family member to us and we only want what is best for her and have never considered breeding her. We were well aware that luxating patella was predominantly a hereditary problem so we had that checked by our vet prior to purchase and he gave her the 'all clear' and we had a letter from the breeder's vet also stating there were no concerns in this area. It appears to be 'trauma induced' - we did take her on a picnic with us - it was a really physical day for all concerned, but I never noticed anything that would have hurt her leg...apparently I must be very lacking in this area as she now has a major problem. If Holly is anything, it is excitable...she is extremely 'physical' and excitable...it appears that this has been to her detriment. She has managed to dislocate her knee 7 times since returning from the vets this evening. Basically, every time she moves she dislocates it. It tears at my heart to leave this, so we will be seeking a second opinion, and I agree that early intervention, given that healing etc is always better for younger 'anything' I feel that I've already made the decision. I will now be looking for someone, our way, that can give me a more confident response. I do like our vet, but feel that he was very reluctant about performing this operation...at the end of the day I have to consider Holly's welfare before his feelings, unfortunately. Poor little girl is in pain, on and off, and knows that we are worried. She is constantly looking at me with that 'oh dear' look that worried furries get.

My bigger concern is that my vet said he was about 85% successful when he performed this operation. So...what happens to the 15% that aren't successful?

What's the worst case scenario after having the operation and it doesn't work?

Has anyone experienced this?

[puggy_puggy]

We're going to the vet this afternoon. She's not overweight and we feed her on a diet of food I make - I do three different mixes beef, chicken and lamb (cooked - human quality). To each one add a different mix of vegetables and starches and skimmed milk powder and lactobacillus acidophilus and bifidobacterium. I also make her bickies and other treats.

Meat should not be cooked and if you are feeding meat and no bones then you are going to cause alot of problems for your dog. Veggies should not be cooked but put through the food processor.

Starches & skimmed milk powder?

Sounds like your girl has a fairly high grade Luxation. I would go and get a second opinion on operating.

[OSoSwift]

I would think if it was trauma induced you would have seen her, do something, -twist the wrong way or get a leg caught up in something and yelp. I would think that she had a weakness before the exercise induced the problem. Maybe your vet isn't confident doing surgery on a dog so small? There is a DOLer on here Charles Muntz he is a Veterinarian, maybe pm him and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure he does orthapedics, but I might be wrong.

It sounds like you dearly dearly love your girl and you will do the right thing, I Havent had a dog with this problem so cannot comment, although I would imagine that the ones where the surgery didn't work they would continue to have luxating patella's so would have discomfort.

Good luck

[Shadowmum]

Thanks for replying. I have no idea how she hurt herself - we went on a picnic a couple weeks back (just before this began - it was a hot day and she paddled around in the shallows while I sat with her - who knows - it was a rocky bottom - I spend hours wondering but I know I've never know for sure so I may as well stop trying to work it out). I was sure we did the right thing when we got her and had the vet check for the condition, as well as having the breeder's vet advice that she was fine in this area. At the end of the day I guess it doesn't matter how it happened or if it was genetic - she's our baby now and is part of our family. I could not entertain the idea of getting rid of her - she's been with us for a year now is part of our family (this breeder I was talking to at the vet yesterday said- "send her back to the breeder and go else where").

I couldn't bring myself to contact another vet today. I don't know why. I will make myself tomorrow. Her legs were fine (so far) today. Our vet didn't have issues with her being small, what he said was that in the 30 years he's been a practicing vet he had done 30 operations to correct luxating patella and had an 85% accuracy. I wonder if this is a pretty normal statistic for vets, or is he being very honest as is telling me that he has a 15% fail rate. He said that his belief was that sometimes the whole ordeal is worse than the dog putting up with luxating patella - this bit comes to us most likely because Holly is an extremely sensitive dog - she shivers in terror the minute we drive down the road toward the vet. She's terrified of strangers etc - has been known to throw up for a day after facing strangers (yes we've had every concievable test done for this and yes we've done puppy preschool when she was a pup). She also vomits up any raw meat. Anyway, he also added that we'd have to determine if this was going to be an occaisional occurence, or was it going to be a daily or more than daily event and then we'd need to have the surgery.

I'm worried that if it isn't successful that he'll have to amputate. I could live with a dog who has a leg amutated no problems, but what if it's both legs?

She certainly fitted in well with the rest of the family though. We have a ragdoll (rescue) who injured his cruciate ligament about 8 months ago, he's doing fine now, he loved all the physio that we did 6 times a day. We adopted a birman so the ragdoll had a friend (he's fine but is a fussy eater). And, my OH's medical history out rivals all of them....OH's hip disintegrated several years ago in a quite spectacular manner and he now has rhematoid arthritis and a variety of associated ailment's so it's not like we aren't used to this.

Thanks for following up...it helps to 'talk' about it.

[OSoSwift]

Wow you sound like you have a bit on your plate!!

I would never recommend 'getting rid' of a pet, I can understand breeders not keeping stock they cannot breed with, it makes sense, however ours are our babies and I would not send my 14mo puppy back to the breeder I would deal with the issue. It won't do your dog harm if you watch her for a bit longer to see how often she is affected, but I guess if she is severe and you leave it the likelyhood is that the dmamge will worsen. If her knees only go out occasionally and you can figure out the trigger then reduce it, she may not need surgery.

Please do not beat yourself up about it, the truth is that it was nnothing you did or didn't do and it might well have happened regardless. A sound young dog should be able to paddle on an uneven bottom and not have ill effects. I don't think that if surgery was unsuccessful you would need to do anything drastic like amputate, I would think it would be pain and exercise managment to keep symptoms to a minimum and keep your dog happy and comfortable.

Hope you are all not stressing quite as much about it, while it is not ideal, it is certainly not a death sentence or an amputation senario. Hugs to your little girl and yourselves

[puggy_puggy]

If the operation is not successful then they will not amputate her leg. If anything another attempt at the operation will be made.

I would suggest your vet refering you to a specalist if you are not confident in their ability. There are several different surgery techniques and earlier surgery helps prevent arthritis.

It sounds like you are feeding meat (phosphorus) with no bone (calcium). If you are in fact doing so you are going to cause your dog great harm in terms of bones and muscle development. What raw meat did you try feeding that she threw up?

[Shadowmum]

If the operation is not successful then they will not amputate her leg. If anything another attempt at the operation will be made.

I would suggest your vet refering you to a specalist if you are not confident in their ability. There are several different surgery techniques and earlier surgery helps prevent arthritis.

It sounds like you are feeding meat (phosphorus) with no bone (calcium). If you are in fact doing so you are going to cause your dog great harm in terms of bones and muscle development. What raw meat did you try feeding that she threw up?

We add skimmed milk (powder form) to her meals to provide her with some calcium. We tried raw beef, lamb, chicken, kangaroo - she threw all that up. She handles, at this stage, cooked meat. Our vet believes she'll eventually not handle the cooked stuff either and he wanted us to put her on kibble (Hills prescription diet only). She hates any kibble so he gave us some of the tinned variety...I wasn't surprised when she wouldn't eat that either. I have discussed vitamins etc with the vet and he seems to think that with the powdered milk and vegetable variety that we give her, she'll be fine. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm slightly more relieved to here that they wouldn't amputate. I'm not sure if it is that our vet isn't confident or he is being very honest ...I don't know. I've researched it and it appears that the operation is 90% successful. Maybe I have to accept that with anything there is going to be a 'fail' rate for one reason or another. I am looking for an orthopedic veterinarian surgeon for a consult. I figure if he/she says 'wait' then I have two opinions that say the same thing. I'm not keen on waiting, she's only young and I feel that surgery on a young dog has a greater rate of success and healing is easier for them than for an older dog. I also don't want her to suffer anymore than she has to or to develop arthritis because of it. We have enough of that here already to know how crippling and painful it can be.

[Shadowmum]

I took Holly to a second vet for a second opinion. I did ring before hand and explain the situation and that I was seeking a second opinion. Out vet used to run a 24 hour operation but has stopped that now he is older and refers his 'patients' and their parents on to a group of vets that share emergency treatment between them. We have used the emergency vet - all three different ones over the years. So when seeking another opinion, I contacted the surgery who where we'd taken Holly after hours twice before, once when she did this 'reverse sneezing' out of the blue which scared the crap out of us and a second time when we went on a picnic and she walked and played with me all day and then, just once stuck her head under a bush and I snatched her back out and then when we got home later that day and I was bathing her I discovered about 10 ticks... when I saw one I removed it, when I saw 9 more I had a heart attack and went to the emergency vet. Clearly all was well, but she was just a little girl at the time (5 months old).

Anyway, this vet said that her right leg was permanently dislocated and was grade 3 and her left leg grade 2. She said that her honest opinion was that Holly required surgery and fairly soon. She said that we should be planning this to occur within the next 3 months tops and they charge $1200, from what I've researched the cost sounds about right. Our vet said he charged $600 - I'm not sure about that.

She also said a lot of things that contradict what our vet said. I think I believe her. Poor Holly was lame 3 times this afternoon. The only reason she wasn't earlier was because I confined her. This isn't good. The minute I took her outside for a 'piddle' he leg popped up. We have floor boards, very slippery, she popped it twice on then and three times at the vet in a 20 min period.

Anyway, that is just an up date.

I asked if pain killers would keep her going for the next 10 weeks, mainly because of 2 things (I'll be honest $) and because I won't be able to have time off work for ten weeks - I've got my leave tied in with school holidays so my OH has one week with the kids and I have the other, I'm just finishing three weeks off (I wish I stayed at work and saved the leave now).

We have two beautiful boys (fur kind - cats) and three gorgeous girls (2 human and one canine - Holly) and a 200 litre aquarium that causes no end of work (lets not go there). Had I have known 12 months ago that this was going to happen, and I thought I took good precautions with two vets telling me she was fine, I would not have put Holly or myself in this situation. As it is, my OH suffered immense pain in various areas, his doctor diagnosed, after many tests, rheumatoid arthritis, a disease where the immune system attacks vital organs and joints - the arthritis side of it is nothing compared to the damage his liver, kidneys and heart are suffering. So I work and work and work and he works and works and works and most of our $ goes to pay for prescribed medication (is is expensive or what) and then I spend free time researching anything that might help and I have no idea how he keeps working while he's in so much pain. As a result of me trying to help him we now take spirulina and chlorella (do not let it dissolve in your mouth - ewwwww) as well as apple cider vinegar, concentrated black cherry juice, glucosimine etc etc...I think my income primarily goes toward medication and trying to find pain relief. I don't mind that... at all. I just wish I wasn't in this situation with Holly... i'd never of taken on a pup if I didn't think I could afford any problems that might occur. At the time, all was fine.

I've off loaded now and feel a bit better. Life goes on... Thanks

On the better and brighter side, Holly will be okay, we will look after her...She's a sweeties - a bit temperamental at the moment, but that's understandable...I started the pain killers for her tonight - so hopefully she'll feel a bit better in a couple of hours and will rest well.

I feel so bad that Holly has to wait

[OSoSwift]

Shadowmum, It's is great you have gotten a second opinion and it sounds like you are happy with the new person you saw which is great. HIndsight can be a wonderful thing, but occasionally things are thrown up that don't help us out too much. The vet has said to do the surgery in the next 3 months so you are aiming to do that. If you keep her quiet as instructed and on her medication then you are doing the best you can. Not everyone has thousands of dollars tucked away just in case.

It sounds hard enough just trying to keep up with the other medication in your house, they can be so expensive, my dad had Parkinsons Disease and his medication is very expensive, and at the moment the company has taken one size off the market but not had the forethought to make more of the other size, so mum has tracked some down in Sydney which is being airfreighted over! So I have a small understanding of how frustrating expensive medication can be.

Your little Holly will be okay, when you get her surgery done I am sure she will be happier. I am amazed at your and your husbands strength, I have only known one person with Rheumatoid Arthritis and it very debilatating so he must be very brave and strong.

It's times like these I wish I could grant wishes, I really do, but all I can do is wish you the best, you are doing a great job and I hope all works out well for you, your family and Holly.

[Shadowmum]

Dear Rommimum,

Thanks for your support throught all of this, it's helped to have someone to 'spill' it all to. Holly had her first pain killer last night and her mood certainly seemed to have lifted about half an hour later (perhaps it's my imagination). She is going to miss her walks terribly, but we're going to use the time until her first operation as training time (nothing vigorous). She understands all the basics, but when excited ignores all commands, so we thought we could reinforce some basic training and hopefully this one on one attention, for rewards, will keep her stimulated. We all spend a lot of time with her so she isn't lacking for company, she rough plays with one of our cats so we're going to have to intervene there - she'll miss that. We've already worked out a post operation, recovery set up to limit her capacity to move. When we adopted her we purchased this little fence like set up to divide the house in two so the cats had their area and she had hers. As time's gone by and we don't need to worry about them being together we've pulled it apart and used it for a variety of things - stopping Holly from accessing the kitty litter boxes, around the Xmas tree, etc. So we're going to put a section back together, put her 'tent' (like a canvas transport container with mess windows etc) in it, water fountain next to it and litter box opposite it and enclose the lot as close as we can with the fence. This should mean three steps to water, the litter box and bed and no more. I figure she'll being in that a lot for about 10 days, then she'll slowly be able to increase her time out of it. Our floor is part carpeted and part floor boards and they're very slippery for Holly and the cats when they're running around - heaven help us trying to stop that...I'm thinking that slipping on that while playing with one of our cats was how she probably injured herself..never know for sure.

Illness is such a pain. You know that saying "Money can't buy health" - I so disagree with that...it pays for treatment, medications, etc etc. I can't imagine how expensive meds are for Parkinsons, but I know that my hubby is on anti-parkinsonian drugs for a neurological disorder that makes his shake and shudder all night (sleeping around here can be fun at times - I've kicked him out once or twice and taken my daughter in with me - she's too old now (drat) anyway, just that one med is $98 it lasts him about a month. One good thing though is that we reach the government threshhold for their cheaper scripts card pretty quickly - we aren't there yet though so we're paying through the nose for everything - this is ironic - we should have spent enough in about another 8 - 10 weeks. I remember when we first got the card and used it when he needed some more meds for the ra, the medication was $148 - with the card it dropped down to $145 - so much relief I could hardly believe it....I was a bit 'what's the point of this then, but he's on about 9 different meds and some of them came down quite a bit and also toward about August/September we reach another thresh hold and it drops again and one of the 5 specialists he sees even stops charging him and gets it straight from medicare at around then.

How bad is your dad's Parkinson's ...I, many years ago started out in Nursing...I remember clearly my patients who had Parkinson's. What I can't understand is why they haven't cured or found something that slows the disease right down. Apparently they've discovered something to slow RA down to practically nothing. My OH's doctor says it'll be about 20 years before it reaches Australia (I think it'll be too late by then- but you never know). Parkinson's is a cruel illness. How do you and you mum cope? how is your dad through it all?

Hey I just went to get Holly her medication and I checked the bottle of the anti-parkinsonian meds that my OH takes the cost was $7.75 and above it it says full cost $49.90 but the chemist crossed that out and wrote $98.00. I wonder why he did that, like is it's important to let the customer know that they're getting meds cheaper, or is it a 'remember the real cost won't you?' thing. lol

Anyway, better go and give Holly her medication. Thank you so much for keeping in contact and being so supportive and helpful...it's meant a lot to me.

Heidi

ps: We brought a new fridge on this interest free thing through Harvey Norman about 12 months ago. Through that we now have this lovely 'credit card' type thing Go Go Master (or something like that). We've never used it. Interest on it is astronomical, and we've had the occaisional chuckle about how they try to get you in, but last night I said to hubby that we can access $ on it and if the situation requires emergency - it has to be done now - operation we could use that. Funny how these things come together isn't it.

I think I've told you my whole life story now....

Edited January 30, 2009 by Shadowmum

[OSoSwift]

Glad Holly is feeling a bit better on her tablets.

You can get, not a 100% sure where from, aspray that you can put on dogs pads to help then to not slip. I have seen people use it at indoor shows, maybe something like that might help when she can roam the house more.

The set up you have detailed sounds like it will fit the bill perfectly, a little space, but everything close and she doesn't need to move around much.

My Dads PD is getting worse and as they live 1500kms away when I see him I notice a big difference quite often. He shakes quite badly in one arm, not so much in the other, his head shakes a bit all the time so he has llots of headaches. He drags on leg when he walks. But I think sometimes the most painful thing for him is the muscle spasms he gets, at times he is in agony. There are also gastro intestinal complications which he suffers from but not severly at this point.

I guess mum and dad cope best they can, I am quite often the sounding board for frustrations which is the least I can offer being so far away, but that can get a bit depressing some times.

My Dad was a farmer, very active and very capable. He could build anything, invented farming things still used today. That is the hardest thing for me to see someone who was so strong and capable to not be able to write, or sign his name. He built my dog runs years ago, now it would be just about impossible, but him being so stubborn would probably and try and get it done eventually anyway. To go somewhere that requires walking, he now walks and drags one leg, he used to be able to beat me convincingly in a foot race.

But I guess that is life and sometimes it sucks

We collected cord blood when we had our second baby in the hope that before it is too late we can maybe use that to help with his treatment, we will see.

Hope all goes well for you guys and Holly, just be very careful of that credit card thing, I worry so much about hose things, they charge people so much and usually it when people really need it, but are sqeezed financially. Hope it all comes together and it is good that Holly is feeling better on her tablets.

[gareth]

Did you get your pup from a registered breeder? If so, talk to them to let them know what is going on. They may be able to provide some support.

I would suggest you take the dog to a chiro before jumping into surgery also. They know bones, muscles and joints far better than the average vet. I took a lame dog to a chiro a few weeks ago and a quick manipulation fixed the problem straightaway.

I would never see a GP vet in regard to lameness, as a first option now, unless of course there was an obvious wound or similar..

Was the dog x-rayed? Or did I miss that.

Also be very careful with the polished floors and provide lots of rubber backed mats for the dog to get a grip on.

Edited January 30, 2009 by gareth

[angelbrook]

Merlin, me and Tala send you lots of healing wishes to you, your family and little Holly ... you are doing really well and Holly is lucky to have a mum like you ...

[Shadowmum]

Holly isn't having a good day. She badly wants to go for a walk. I took her outside to the small enclosed grass area we have in our back yard and got so excited that she popped her knee out...so in we came. She's by sleeping most of the day and not eating. When she walks she tends to pop her knee out...it's a buggar. We'll see, maybe we'll have to take early action - but hopefully this is just a bad day. I'm going to take her for a drive and carry tomorrow :D I hope that perks her up a bit.

Your poor dad. I know with my OH that he gets depressed with the constant pain and lack of relief. His RA specialist says that they'll get it under control. He hasn't so far but it's only been about 8 months...here's hoping. I feel the helplessness and hopelessness caused by the pain and illness lead to depression and that adds so much stress, which of course does not help the illness. Are they going to use the cord blood that you collected when your daughter was born? It must be very hard being so far away but these things can't be helped.

Thanks again for your support and advice.

Heidi

[Shadowmum]

Did you get your pup from a registered breeder? If so, talk to them to let them know what is going on. They may be able to provide some support.

I would suggest you take the dog to a chiro before jumping into surgery also. They know bones, muscles and joints far better than the average vet. I took a lame dog to a chiro a few weeks ago and a quick manipulation fixed the problem straightaway.

I would never see a GP vet in regard to lameness, as a first option now, unless of course there was an obvious wound or similar..

Was the dog x-rayed? Or did I miss that.

Also be very careful with the polished floors and provide lots of rubber backed mats for the dog to get a grip on.

Yeah we got Holly from a registered breeder - our vet and hers said that she didn't have luxating patella. I'm remembering every little bump and stumble now. I think it's most likely that she's slipped on time too many on the floorboards while playing with our cat. The play tag! One runs, the other follows and then they jump on each other and bounce all over the place and the the other runs and the other one follows...it's quite enchanting to watch - they get along so well, but it also involves many skids across the floor boards and many slips and stumbles. I think she's probably hurt herself during one of these times. I don't know really. She also stumbled on the stairs to the back yard. I can think of a dozen times when she's done something. We are breaking the areas up at the moment so that running around isn't possible and will be get mats everywhere. I've also been told there is a spray you can apply to the paws to help them not slip - maybe I'll make some shoes (don't laugh my Grandfather made his kelpie leather boots so her paws wouldn't freeze when he walked her during winter and then made a special pair so she could walk on ice and not slip (they lived up in the Snowy Mountains) I wish he was still alive - by the way the Kelpie was the size of a calf and lived to 21 years - Suzie - everyone from Cooma to Khancoban knew her).

Neither vet x-rayed, the first vet, who advised to let her live with it said that if we wanted to have it operated he'd xray first. This he said because I was saying it was her right leg that was constantly lame and he said it was fine and he feels her left leg luxating.

The second vet (one we've used after hours) said that it was definately her right leg and it was out permanently and was grade 3 and her left leg was at the serious end of grade 2. My hubby rang her later and ask a few more questions and he mentioned that our other vet said it was her left and her right was fine, but said he'd x-ray and she said that they wouldn't x-ray it was obvious that it was luxating patella and it was that concerning that they wouldn't need an x-ray to confirm it.

I couldn't even find an orthopedic vet on the Central Coast or Newcastle, I don't think I'm going to find a Chiro, but thanks for the suggestion and I will do a 'search' and try to find one. It would be nice to have it fixed with a bit of chiro work.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help us. I appreciate it.