Bones & Teeth Cleaning

[Crisovar]

Crisovar: Are you not selling Eagle Pack because it's hard to stock i.e. supply? Or other reasons?

Just curious to know as I'm a consumer but have never stocked it in a clinic I've worked at.

Too many problems with supply, drove us nuts, which is a shame, it is a good product.

[Guest belgian.blue]

Perhaps a poll would be in order. I was under the impression that most vets push food. My vet doesn't, but I was given the impression that most do.

In my past with taking pets to the vet, they've always suggested the best dry food is amazingly on sale out near the front desk.

Some owner are so worried about their pets health that the vet/nurse can get the owner to add an extra $1OO to their already huge bill.

A friend of my mums works for Royal Canin and when I first got my dog I had her on RC and this lady really pushed one type of food within the range .. full of wheat and rubbish .. yet she was so set that she knew this was the best for Ivy.

No other type of dry food will do and all she needs is this kibble and the occasional bone. Too much bone is bad for a pup she told me. Yet most pups on DOL get a RMB nearly everyday?

I told her to stick it as the food gave Ivy horrid gas.

[OSoSwift]

I have never worked for a vet that was paid kick backs from a dry food company.

Our vet recommends a diet made up of 80% age/weight appropriate Good quality dry food (Super premium Advance, Proplan etc - we can't get Eagle pack or others at all easily) and the rest of the diet RAW meaty bones, but not chop bones even if raw, and NEVER cooked. They also say a small amount of meat, veggies rice pasta etc.

Most of the clients don't want to make up a purely raw diet, so to me this is a good path to take. They also have toothbrushes, chewy things and pigs ears.

Another vet I worked for fed his dog bones daily and a mixture of meat, liver, rice and vegies/fruit every second day. She was always really fit and in fantastic condition and lived a long life for a large breed.

My dogs get a mixture as I worry about getting the mix of raw only correct and my dogs are in good condition and fit and healthy.

[Rappie]

From the outset, I think it's important to keep in mind that the general dog owning population and the DOL dog owning population are quite different in levels of knowledge.

We stock one brand of food because the prescription diets are very good. We also stock the 'consumer' range because they are good quality. We also stock the consumer range, because its quite common for new puppy owners to be completely flustered about what to feed and would like to buy their food with advice. Plenty of my clients feed raw, or home cooked, or brands of dry food that we don't sell. Our general principle is to encourage good nutrition, not push a specific brand.

In terms of bones, I always discuss 'appropriate' bones with clients. They can choose whether or not to feed them. It's naive to assume that feeding bones is without risk, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - so just because YOU have never had a problem with feeding bones, not all dogs can eat bones without incident.

There's two types of bone:

Hard, weight bearing bones are best fed when meaty for recreation, and keeping the incisors and canines clean through ripping and tearing the meat and tissues off it. These bones are harder than teeth, and slab fractures of the carnassials are quite common. Best fed when they are bigger than the dogs head Cutting them in half for the marrow might elicit warm fuzzy feelings but it's also a great way to trigger a case of pancreatitis. I also recommend that they bones are taken away once theres nothing left on them.

Softer bones that can be eaten entirely - really need to fed with care. They need to be chewed to have any effect on teeth. If chicken necks and wings get swallowed, then you need to feed something bigger like frames, or brisket or lamb flaps. I recommend that these bones are fed while the dogs are supervised - they also need to be appropriate to the size of the dog. Crunching the bones up keeps the back teeth clean.

The dogs I have seen with issues have usually been fed cooked bones, a random size chunk of bone that was really too big to swallow but too small to chew and then gets lodged somewhere in the digestive tract, have had so many bones that they poop (or have difficulty pooping) bone shards and need enemas, or have split their teeth in half chewing on the shin bone they've had for the last week.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Rappie

[poodlefan]

Hmmm sounds like I need to be feeding larger bones more frequently.

[Diva]

In terms of bones, I always discuss 'appropriate' bones with clients. They can choose whether or not to feed them. It's naive to assume that feeding bones is without risk, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - so just because YOU have never had a problem with feeding bones, not all dogs can eat bones without incident.

I agree entirely, there is a risk and you need to know what's appropriate for your dog/s, which seems to me to be about both the size of the dog and their feeding style. Some are just gulpers and bones need to be big for their own protection. Mine tend to tackle any meal like they are doing a Rubric's cube, it's a very careful, systematic process - and I still keep and eye on them and pick up any leftovers, of which there are usually none for the softer bones and carcasses.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Diva

[koolietas]

Skin/fur etc will help clean the front teeth...which is why carcasses are ideal to feed.

[hopenfox]

I normally feed edible meaty bones when I can't find whole prey - all different kinds and shapes and sizes, but one of my dogs isn't allowed to eat them whole and unfortunately needs to be fed her bone minced.

So I've had to look for boneless options to help keep her teeth clean and her gums healthy.

To clean her front teeth, I've found pulling the meat off lamb shanks works well (she's been taught not to try and eat the bone).

Pork hocks work well too, pulling off meat cleans front teeth and gnawing off the tough skin helps with the back ones.

But my absolute favourite for an all over teeth clean is an ox tongue! Really tough and chewy and the huge, rough taste buds act as a great natural tooth brush.

Edited January 30, 2009 by hopenfox

[Diva]

But my absolute favourite for an all over teeth clean is an ox tongue! Really tough and chewy and the huge, rough taste buds act as a great natural tooth brush.

LOL, I feed ox tongue sometimes, but I have to be feeling strong! Of all the things I feed, that's the one where its look completely grosses me out

[Mooper]

The local vet who goes on the radio here was telling people on ABC talkback that feeding any bones at all was now considered a recipe for disaster, he recommend no bones in the diet, much better to clean your dogs teeth or have a vet do it. I nearly choked on my b'fast cereal.

I heard that morning's broadcast, too, and asked him about it the next time I went into my local vet office (where he also practices).

I waited for him to tell me what good condition my (then) 8yo dog was in, and how perfect his teeth are

When pressed, he said that it's a case of going with the lowest common denominator. The majority of pet owners, who do not do as much research into appropriate bones, supplements etc as DOLers tend to do), have a better chance of giving their dogs a balanced diet if it's a commercial one. Whereas if you tell the average person to feed their dogs bones, they'll chuck out the cooked roast chook carcass, remainders of a leg of lamb or whatever. Which he said would mean vets would see more dogs with troubles caused by splintered bones, dogs with nothing else in their diet but bones (cooked and raw) with very little meat on them and so on.

I'm not excusing him, as I think he should have qualified his statements on-air by saying that when done RIGHT, raw meaty bones can be an ideal part of a dog's diet. But there you are.

[Diva]

I'm not excusing him, as I think he should have qualified his statements on-air by saying that when done RIGHT, raw meaty bones can be an ideal part of a dog's diet. But there you are.

Fair enough

[Red Fox]

Is it dangerous for a dog to swallow raw chicken bones? My ridgie is almost 19 weeks and sometime swallows his chicken wings/necks/etc. I try to give them semi-frozen so that he will chew which sometimes works, but other times he just crunches them a little and down they go. I am wondering if he is having trouble as he is losing his baby teeth... so maybe it is hard to chew properly? Yesterday he had a chicken quarter for lunch, and then last night had the runs and all the bones from lunch came out the other end whole! This morning his poop was back to normal but though I should give him a days break so today we had a bone free day (gave mince instead) and poor Kei sat by the fridge tonight for about 15mins after tea waiting for his chicken wing which never came :D

[hopenfox]

No, it's rarely dangerous if they go down (only if they get stuck do you need to worry).

Dogs aren't like humans in the way they eat and digest food - digestion doesn't begin in the mouth like it does for us, but in the stomach, so 'chomp, crunch, swallow' is perfectly normal for dogs.

Feeding bigger pieces will help slow him down, like a half or whole chicken.

Regurgitating excess bones is also pretty natural - dog's only need around 10% bone and often excess is brought up. Nothing to worry about!

The 'runs' is usually caused by too much something: too much food, too much fat, too much new, too much liver...and sometimes too much bone or not enough bone.

Edited January 31, 2009 by hopenfox

[Red Fox]

No, it's rarely dangerous if they go down (only if they get stuck do you need to worry).

Dogs aren't like humans in the way they eat and digest food - digestion doesn't begin in the mouth like it does for us, but in the stomach, so 'chomp, crunch, swallow' is perfectly normal for dogs.

Feeding bigger pieces will help slow him down, like a half or whole chicken.

Regurgitating excess bones is also pretty natural - dog's only need around 10% bone and often excess is brought up. Nothing to worry about!

The 'runs' is usually caused by too much something: too much food, too much fat, too much new, too much liver...and sometimes too much bone or not enough bone.

Hmmm... I wonder if the whole quarter was a bit too rich for him, too much meat or bone maybe

I normally give either 2 chicken wings or a thigh (skin on with bone) for lunch but we had managed to pick up some whole fresh chickens at a really good price and then just hacked them into quarters. There would have been some bits in there that he isn't used to getting (ie. whole breast and back bone + all the cartlidge) otherwise he ate nothing unusual that day to cause the runs.

Anyway, seems to be fine now Will give another wing for lunch and see how he goes (which should have been an hour ago but Kei is busy doing what he does best... SLEEPING... lol

Thanks for the info.