Anyone Done Ruff Love

[Luke W]

Luke, tried training with food drive rather than prey drive? No point trying to use prey if your dog just prefers food.

No doubt, he prefers foo.

When he knows there's a chicken frame at stake, he has the snappiest downs and sits imaginable.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Luke W

[Luke W]

Luke, I know you train Barkly carefully and he has his offlead fun but do you think he finds what you do together fun?

I think you can sour a dog with too many demands too early - you see it in the obedience ring. Dogs going through the motions but clearly not enthusiastic at all. Sometimes what you need is less drill and more play. Susan Garratt would be the first to comment that most people don't play enough with their dogs.

My low tech suggestion would be to have a look at your relationship with Barkly and up the fun factor - make him have more fun with you than on his own.

God, I sound like a marriage counsellor!

Yup.

That's exactly why I'm looking at Ruff Love.

I think he enjoys being off lead, sniffing, playing with others dogs and crunching up pine cones, more fun than playing fetch, playing tug and training with me.

ETA:

I just thought of a good example - when we get to the park, I make him sit at heel while I take his lead off. Then I say "off you go" and he does. Like a shot, nose down. He's 20m away before he turns around. Somehow I think the relationship would be stronger if he hung around and looked at me as if to say "play?".

Edited January 26, 2009 by Luke W

[Kavik]

Luke, I know you train Barkly carefully and he has his offlead fun but do you think he finds what you do together fun?

I think you can sour a dog with too many demands too early - you see it in the obedience ring. Dogs going through the motions but clearly not enthusiastic at all. Sometimes what you need is less drill and more play. Susan Garratt would be the first to comment that most people don't play enough with their dogs.

My low tech suggestion would be to have a look at your relationship with Barkly and up the fun factor - make him have more fun with you than on his own.

God, I sound like a marriage counsellor!

I agree and have been guilty of this myself with Diesel One of the things I have been doing lately with Diesel is simplifying things and doing more fun stuff (and trying to get him more interested in toys). Pretty much just working on drive work, sending to a toy, sending to a food bag, fun and simple exercises like come fores and find heel position and finishes which he really enjoys. Sounds like a lot but really isn't He is having more fun and so am I. Removing some of the expectations and stress.

[poodlefan]

I think he enjoys being off lead, sniffing, playing with others dogs and crunching up pine cones, more fun than playing fetch, playing tug and training with me.

Once he's a bit older, I think agility is a great team building activity and very self rewarding for the dog. Of course, the dog doesn't get to perform the obstacles unless they do them at YOUR cue.

I'd suggest a short 'holiday' from training and perhaps new offlead stuff together with no other dogs arond - can you beach walk with him (just you two) and recall him occasionally for a reward? Would fetching from water be something he'd enjoy?

[ness]

Luke W sorry I can't help but chuckle about the disappearing and going off sniffing and you wanting him to play instead.

Kenzie is the opposite and sometimes I just wish she would go off sniffing instead of me removing the lead and her sitting waiting for the ball to appear.

We should mix the two together and might just get the perfect dog .

[Luke W]

I think he enjoys being off lead, sniffing, playing with others dogs and crunching up pine cones, more fun than playing fetch, playing tug and training with me.

Once he's a bit older, I think agility is a great team building activity and very self rewarding for the dog. Of course, the dog doesn't get to perform the obstacles unless they do them at YOUR cue.

I'd suggest a short 'holiday' from training and perhaps new offlead stuff together with no other dogs arond - can you beach walk with him (just you two) and recall him occasionally for a reward? Would fetching from water be something he'd enjoy?

We do the beach walk and recall thing...fetch from water...he's not really that confident swimming to be too keen on that.

BTW - Sometimes I just wonder if my expectations are too high.

[Luke W]

Luke W sorry I can't help but chuckle about the disappearing and going off sniffing and you wanting him to play instead.

Kenzie is the opposite and sometimes I just wish she would go off sniffing instead of me removing the lead and her sitting waiting for the ball to appear.

We should mix the two together and might just get the perfect dog .

and I'm very aware of the possible downside of having a super focused dog

I want the best of both worlds!

[ness]

and I'm very aware of the possible downside of having a super focused dog

I want the best of both worlds!

LOL hmm not sure thats entirely possible at least from my experience. If you manage it let me know .

[poodlefan]

We do the beach walk and recall thing...fetch from water...he's not really that confident swimming to be too keen on that.

BTW - Sometimes I just wonder if my expectations are too high.

Get him a float vest maybe?

He's still a youngster Luke. Work on the relationship and the training will improve. Some dogs cannot be drilled.

You really want to find the sparkle that makes a great dog/handler combination such a pleasure to watch.

[Luke W]

We do the beach walk and recall thing...fetch from water...he's not really that confident swimming to be too keen on that.

BTW - Sometimes I just wonder if my expectations are too high.

Get him a float vest maybe?

He's still a youngster Luke. Work on the relationship and the training will improve. Some dogs cannot be drilled.

You really want to find the sparkle that makes a great dog/handler combination such a pleasure to watch.

I really need to take some video.

Sometimes he sparkles

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think you can sour a dog with too many demands too early - you see it in the obedience ring. Dogs going through the motions but clearly not enthusiastic at all. Sometimes what you need is less drill and more play. Susan Garratt would be the first to comment that most people don't play enough with their dogs.

I agree, it happens in the show ring too. Compliance is not the most important thing all the time, the bigger picture and quality of life is important.

Susan Garrett also mentioned rewriting Ruff Love when she was in Canberra. People had taken the program and totally forgotten that they were dealing with a sentient companion which lead to some situations which were abusive. Play is important, time with the owner is important, downtime alone is important.

Also, question from a sighthound owner - why exactly does it bother you that he enjoys time by himself? What is wrong with that, providing his obedience is holding reasonably well during what is a challenging age? I'm with Poodlefan, it might be time to back off a bit.

[Erny]

Another good cure for anxiety is putting yourself in control of things for the animal so they know where everything is coming from and when.

Ummmmm .... would you please clarify what you mean? Because the way I'm reading it, this is essentially "leadership", which is what I'm saying.

[poodlefan]

Anita:

Susan Garrett also mentioned rewriting Ruff Love when she was in Canberra. People had taken the program and totally forgotten that they were dealing with a sentient companion which lead to some situations which were abusive. Play is important, time with the owner is important, downtime alone is important.

I think Ruff Love taken to extremes is basically creating Stockholm Syndrome. I have issues with the creation of a situation where deprivation is used to gain compliance. I'm glad that Susan Garratt is reworking her book. I agree with the principles she has in it but its not for every dog and there is always a risk that some people will decide more of the program is better. There's a line beyond which a crate does become a prison

I don't think you can solve all training issues with more control of resources. You have to find out what truly motivates your dog (which is a simplistic way of talking about drive training) and also how to play with him (not talking about Barkly here just in general). Given that most of our dogs spend time away from us each day, it think its essential that they learn (particularly with only dogs) to amuse themselves.

I have had handlers complain that their dogs aren't interested in spending time with them. Most of them need to learn to become for fun to be with. Sometimes more training is the last thing a dog needs to resolve its training issues.

Horse trainers usually spell their horses, especially when young. They turn them out and just let them vege for weeks at a time. I think its a principle that has application to dogs. Just have fun with them and let them have break from the stresses of training.

Edited January 26, 2009 by poodlefan

[Luke W]

Also, question from a sighthound owner - why exactly does it bother you that he enjoys time by himself? What is wrong with that, providing his obedience is holding reasonably well during what is a challenging age? I'm with Poodlefan, it might be time to back off a bit.

A fair question.

I think his obedience is holding 'reasonably well' but I really don't know if that's good enough.

This is the first dog I've had in many years. This is the first dog I plan to trial (in obed and agility). I'm a newbie who's not quite sure what my expectations should be.

Why does it bother me that he enjoys time by himself?

- I only worry that it's going to hinder his obedience and work ethic/performance further down the track and that it's impacting on his general behavior now.

The things that bother me...

General behavioral stuff:

The difficulty I have getting him to 'leave it' (sticks, other dogs, people lying in the park, food wrappings in the park, dead possums).

The difficulty I have getting a recall when he's focused on sniffing, playing with other dogs, greeting people, etc.

The training stuff

- His lack of interest in tug when he's outside.

- The difficulty I have lowering the rate of reinforcement (demand barking, displacement behaviors)

- His occasional lack of eagerness to work.

I'm looking forward to getting back to school to discuss these issues with the more experienced triallers and to get a feel for how we are progressing.

[Erny]

I don't think you can solve all training issues with more control of resources. You have to find out what truly motivates your dog and also how to play with him (not talking about Barkly here just in general). Given that most of our dogs spend time away from us each day, it think its essential that they learn (particularly with only dogs) to amuse themselves.

I agree. And did not mean to infer that all training issues are solved with control of resources, if your post was directed to me or in response to mine. Calm assertiveness. Not everything on the dog's terms.

I have had handlers complain that their dogs aren't interested in spending time with them. Most of them need to learn to become for fun to be with.

"Fun" is motivational. IMO it should always comprise a part of any relationship.

[poodlefan]

Luke there are trainers who won't put a dog in an obedience/trialling ring before 18 months- 2 years because they feel that younger dogs lack the maturity to cope with the stresses of competition training.

I think they have a point. Dogs can burn out. I've seen it.

[poodlefan]

I don't think you can solve all training issues with more control of resources. You have to find out what truly motivates your dog and also how to play with him (not talking about Barkly here just in general). Given that most of our dogs spend time away from us each day, it think its essential that they learn (particularly with only dogs) to amuse themselves.

I agree. And did not mean to infer that all training issues are solved with control of resources, if your post was directed to me or in response to mine. Calm assertiveness. Not everything on the dog's terms.

Nope, just a general observation Erny based on issues I've seen. The key is to find the balance between control and freedom.

I have seen trainers who think the response to a well done exercise is to do it again, just to be sure. If its not as good then they keep doing it. Hell, if the dog has nailed it, it should be end of exercise.

That was one of the principles of the Joffrey? method of horse training. When a young horse got something - end of exercise. Take the pressure off as that in itself is a reward.

[Luke W]

I don't think you can solve all training issues with more control of resources. You have to find out what truly motivates your dog and also how to play with him (not talking about Barkly here just in general). Given that most of our dogs spend time away from us each day, it think its essential that they learn (particularly with only dogs) to amuse themselves.

I agree. And did not mean to infer that all training issues are solved with control of resources, if your post was directed to me or in response to mine. Calm assertiveness. Not everything on the dog's terms.

Nope, just a general observation Erny based on issues I've seen. The key is to find the balance between control and freedom.

I have seen trainers who think the response to a well done exercise is to do it again, just to be sure. If its not as good then they keep doing it. Hell, if the dog has nailed it, it should be end of exercise.

That was one of the principles of the Joffrey? method of horse training. When a young horse got something - end of exercise. Take the pressure off as that in itself is a reward.

Barkly did a perfect retrieve the other day. He got the whole bag of chicken and we called it a day!

[persephone]

A few notes from when we trained dogs without all the fancy language

way back when..........

Guide dogs were with families until 12 mths/14 mths of age.. just learning the basics, and growing up.

They started their training proper after that.

They were kennelled- usually 2 to a kennel.. and apart from toilet/feeding opportunities several times a day... their only out-of - kennel time was training walks.

They had one, maybe two sessions a day, 5 days a week...with a steadily increasing workload... for up to 6 mths.

Often a dog would not be matured enough, and would be sent back to a family for another few months...

Dogs which weren't happy workers, or ones which became jaded were also sent on holidays

It's hard .not seeing dogs face to face--- I would also be thinking barkly needs a bit of free time...

[persephone]

Hell, if the dog has nailed it, it should be end of exercise.

that's what I was always taught... finish a session on a high note, and while a dog is still keen .