Anyone Done Ruff Love

[Luke W]

I read the book a few months ago and I'm reading it again.

I think Barkly is loosing focus and getting too many rewards from his environment - he doesn't work as well as he did when he was 6mo old (he's now 11mo).

His recall isn't as strong as it was and I seem to be battling with him in some areas (keeping of the kitchen bench, not chewing sticks, 'leave it', etc).

He's not an out of control dog and still works reasonably well (for an 11mo cocker) but I'd like him to be a bit better!

So, I'm considering following he Susan Garrett, Ruff Love program.

It's pretty full on and looks like it will take around 15 weeks of dedicated effort.

For those that don't know it, it involves completely removing any chances for the dog to self reward, building up conditioned reinforcers and conditioning the dog that you are the source of everything wonderful in the world so that the dog looks to the handler for all reinforcement. It's involves a lot of crating and the dog being on a lead and halter when it's not in it's crate. Mind you I need to read it again.

Anyway - anyone taken the plunge?

Results?

[Luke W]

Added:

I'm also studying Susan Garretts "Transferring Value" article in Clean Run.

I'd like to transfer the value of some things..

Something like

Food -> Tug

Chicken -> Kibble

Pine Cones->Kongs

[Just Midol]

I read the book a few months ago and I'm reading it again.

I think Barkly is loosing focus and getting too many rewards from his environment - he doesn't work as well as he did when he was 6mo old (he's now 11mo).

His recall isn't as strong as it was and I seem to be battling with him in some areas (keeping of the kitchen bench, not chewing sticks, 'leave it', etc).

He's not an out of control dog and still works reasonably well (for an 11mo cocker) but I'd like him to be a bit better!

So, I'm considering following he Susan Garrett, Ruff Love program.

It's pretty full on and looks like it will take around 15 weeks of dedicated effort.

For those that don't know it, it involves completely removing any chances for the dog to self reward, building up conditioned reinforcers and conditioning the dog that you are the source of everything wonderful in the world so that the dog looks to the handler for all reinforcement. It's involves a lot of crating and the dog being on a lead and halter when it's not in it's crate. Mind you I need to read it again.

Anyway - anyone taken the plunge?

Results?

The concept sounds the same as neutralisation.

[kelpiechick]

SG is rereleasing a modified version of this at some stage, last time she was here there were a lot of queries about it and she said that it wasn't meant to be as 'industrial strength' as it was interpreted by many from the original book - especially there was a lot of misconceptions about the time spent in the crate.

I considered it for my youngest dog, then decided it was a bit full on so put it away - but I recently reread the book after a student consulted me about using it - and found that I actually did about 80% of it with him anyway (She ran the program 'as is' from the book for 3 weeks and says that she has found a big difference even from this time frame)

With my next dog, I think I will probably combine it with the crate games DVD and Control Unleashed (you don't need to have an 'out of control dog' to benefit from many of the ideas in this resource and it's also just been released as a DVD) just to take the edge off it a little bit.

However, like anything else she has written, it is an excellent program - whether you put in the time and effort and follow it to the letter, or whether you modify it to suit - providing the basic principles of NILIF are still consistently applied.

Edited January 26, 2009 by kelpiechick

[Luke W]

SG is rereleasing a modified version of this at some stage, last time she was here there were a lot of queries about it and she said that it wasn't meant to be as 'industrial strength' as it was interpreted by many from the original book - especially there was a lot of misconceptions about the time spent in the crate.

I considered it for my youngest dog, then decided it was a bit full on so put it away - but I recently reread the book after a student consulted me about using it - and found that I actually did about 80% of it with him anyway (She ran the program 'as is' from the book for 3 weeks and says that she has found a big difference even from this time frame)

With my next dog, I think I will probably combine it with the crate games DVD and Control Unleashed (you don't need to have an 'out of control dog' to benefit from many of the ideas in this resource and it's also just been released as a DVD) just to take the edge off it a little bit.

However, like anything else she has written, it is an excellent program - whether you put in the time and effort and follow it to the letter, or whether you modify it to suit - providing the basic principles of NILIF are still consistently applied.

I've read Control Unleashed and it doesn't seem to really fit Barkly. It seems more suited to a very hyper dog. Barkly is pretty laid back. He just wants to do his own thing (which usually involves walk around sniffing the ground and chewing pine cones).

I should watch Crate Games.

[Drumbeat]

For those that don't know it, it involves completely removing any chances for the dog to self reward, building up conditioned reinforcers and conditioning the dog that you are the source of everything wonderful in the world so that the dog looks to the handler for all reinforcement.

Wouldn't this increase the risk of separation anxiety if the dog is so focused on the owner?

[Erny]

Wouldn't this increase the risk of separation anxiety if the dog is so focused on the owner?

There's a difference, and the big difference is the dog's focus due to respect (ie perception of leadership by the owner) -vs- the dog perceiving itself as higher in the pecking order. Difference between the owner having the dog work for all his/her attentions -vs- the owner doting attention and affection on the dog at every turn for absolutely nothing. The latter teaches the dog to govern the owner, but the dog can't govern the owner if the owner is not there ..... and so anxiety builds during the owner's absence.

It's more complex than that (learnt behaviours etc. etc.), but this IMO is an answer to you in a nutshell.

[Tonymc]

Luke, have you explored drive training? Tony

[Luke W]

Luke, have you explored drive training? Tony

A little...

I've just finished the first Balabanov DVD, just start The Game.

I'd need to transfer the value of food up to tug (or his orbee). In a mildly distracting environments, he's not particularly interested in tug.

[Erny]

Luke, have you explored drive training? Tony

A little...

I've just finished the first Balabanov DVD, just start The Game.

I'd need to transfer the value of food up to tug (or his orbee). In a mildly distracting environments, he's not particularly interested in tug.

love using drive to train and agree with Tony. It is worth trying.

You can use food instead, although I admit, I find using the tug easier so if I can, I do.

Try doing a little of tug (in very low distraction environment) and food treating for that. You might find that will help in building your boy's interest in the tug, where food reward will become less and less required. When you incrementally add distraction, take a step backwards in the training and go back to using the food reward for the tugging. When that's ok, reduce off the food rewards the stronger your dog's interest becomes in the tug. Then when you add higher distraction, go back to the food reward again. You get the drift? ETA: Move away from food treat rewards as soon as you can, as the risk with this method is that your boy will learn to only tug for a very short moment, then expecting the food treat. The aim of this is to promote drive for the tug, rather than expectation of the food reward.

Also, into the "TOT" program. That is very complimentary to drive training. In fact, I can see how on its own it can be and IS drive training and would work well with dogs who have no interest in the 'chase' phase of prey drive.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Erny

[J...]

Also consider his age. Darcy at 11 months sounds very similar to Barkly. I believe it was partly her age (early teenage issues) and also me probably taking her good behaviour for granted and her pushing the boundaries as a result.

I haven't read Ruff Love but have always done TOT for meals etc. I increased the work required for meals and anything else she wanted and it really didn't take that long for her to come back into line. Removed the opportunity for self-reward as well, even if it meant she spent time on-lead when she was usually off-lead.

She's recently started pushing the boundaries again. I have spent hours at the beach lately which she finds incredibly rewarding and same issue with me taking her behaviour for granted and letting her slip on a few things. Not any more

[Luke W]

Also consider his age. Darcy at 11 months sounds very similar to Barkly. I believe it was partly her age (early teenage issues) and also me probably taking her good behaviour for granted and her pushing the boundaries as a result.

I haven't read Ruff Love but have always done TOT for meals etc. I increased the work required for meals and anything else she wanted and it really didn't take that long for her to come back into line. Removed the opportunity for self-reward as well, even if it meant she spent time on-lead when she was usually off-lead.

She's recently started pushing the boundaries again. I have spent hours at the beach lately which she finds incredibly rewarding and same issue with me taking her behaviour for granted and letting her slip on a few things. Not any more

Yeah, Barkly gets quite a lot of off leash time (park and beach). This is where he gets to self reward: chewing sticks and pine cones, sniffing, playing with other dogs, swimming, stealing balls, not coming as soon as calls (the "just one sec, let me finish sniffing this" response )...

[corvus]

There's a difference, and the big difference is the dog's focus due to respect (ie perception of leadership by the owner) -vs- the dog perceiving itself as higher in the pecking order. Difference between the owner having the dog work for all his/her attentions -vs- the owner doting attention and affection on the dog at every turn for absolutely nothing. The latter teaches the dog to govern the owner, but the dog can't govern the owner if the owner is not there ..... and so anxiety builds during the owner's absence.

Hold on, are we forgetting that dogs are purely and simply social creatures and don't like to be alone for extended periods? It's not such a stretch to have that turn into a pathological fear if managed poorly. Our pup howled the house down in the first week we had him every time we left him alone, but with care and patience he is now quite happy to be in the yard all alone most of the day. And we shower affection on him whenever we feel like it and he doesn't do a thing for it. Controlling behaviour is a symptom of an anxious or insecure dog, not a dog higher on the pecking order. My 13 year old corgi is a controlling dog, but even she doesn't get anxious when there are no dogs around for her to control. In fact, she's happy because she finds controlling a stressful part of her life. Higher ranking dogs only care about what someone else is doing when it directly interferes with them getting what they want.

Luke, have you heard about the pushing exercise described in Natural Dog Training? It's a method that has been used to transfer food drive to tug and fetch. I've been trying it with Kivi and I think it helps. Kivi is not a very driven dog so it's hard to get him keen on anything. There's an article about it on the web somewhere.

[Erny]

Corvus - that's your dog. And some dogs are ok with it. The one's that I've dealt with who have had issues have benefited greatly by a change in the owner's interactions with them. That's my experience.

[Luke W]

Luke, have you heard about the pushing exercise described in Natural Dog Training? It's a method that has been used to transfer food drive to tug and fetch. I've been trying it with Kivi and I think it helps. Kivi is not a very driven dog so it's hard to get him keen on anything. There's an article about it on the web somewhere.

this?

http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/08...-using-pushing/

[JulesP]

Luke wander over to the trial ring at club and ask for Bec. She trials with gun dogs (bigger Barkly's!) and I reckon she will be able to help you. Is a very good trainer/handler.

Edited January 26, 2009 by JulesP

[Luke W]

Luke wander over to the trial ring at club and ask for Bec. She trials with gun dogs (bigger Barkly's!) and I reckon she will be able to help you. Is a very good trainer/handler.

Thanks Jules!

I'm looking forward to school starting again!

[corvus]

Luke, have you heard about the pushing exercise described in Natural Dog Training? It's a method that has been used to transfer food drive to tug and fetch. I've been trying it with Kivi and I think it helps. Kivi is not a very driven dog so it's hard to get him keen on anything. There's an article about it on the web somewhere.

this?

http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/08...-using-pushing/

Yeah, that's the one. If you can get past the kookiness, there's some good stuff in there.

Ernie, I only use my dogs as an example. I know trainers from other boards that are also professional behaviourists and will say much the same thing. A dog's behaviour WILL change for the better when a human changes their interactions to add more structure to a dog's life, but I doubt it has much to do with pecking order. The best cure for anxiety in general is predictability in general. As long as they don't learn to predict the bad things. Another good cure for anxiety is putting yourself in control of things for the animal so they know where everything is coming from and when. I don't question your methods or their effectiveness in the least, just the explanation.

[Just Midol]

Luke, tried training with food drive rather than prey drive? No point trying to use prey if your dog just prefers food.

[poodlefan]

Luke, I know you train Barkly carefully and he has his offlead fun but do you think he finds what you do together fun?

I think you can sour a dog with too many demands too early - you see it in the obedience ring. Dogs going through the motions but clearly not enthusiastic at all. Sometimes what you need is less drill and more play. Susan Garratt would be the first to comment that most people don't play enough with their dogs.

My low tech suggestion would be to have a look at your relationship with Barkly and up the fun factor - make him have more fun with you than on his own.

God, I sound like a marriage counsellor!

Edited January 26, 2009 by poodlefan