Recall

[paddles]

I am having problems with my dogs recall, neither is particularly obediant if they think that they can get away with it, they know when the long line is on, are not particularly food orientated (I use food rewards, but they seem to ignore it when they want to) I am concerned, I have not had this problem before.

Both dogs are english springer spaniels, one raised from a pup, one aquired as an 8mth old, both are just pets. I get wary, if I can not improve thier recall, something tragic will happen one day.

I would like refresher ideas on training them.

Thank you

[corvus]

If you've poisoned your come command you might have to start from scratch with a new one. Try some truly amazing food rewards like cooked meat. Practise heaps. Several times a day when you are 100% sure they will come. Keep them on long lines or in enclosed areas so they never get a chance to say no. If you concentrate on teaching them that their new come command means the most wonderful rewards in the world rather than that their come command is about them coming you can build up a conditioned response.

If the best food in the world is still met with a luke warm response, try something else they like better. Tug games or fetch or whatever. You can even use releasing them again for another run as a reward.

[huski]

Do they like toys? Or chasing things?

Teaching my dog reliable recall is the bane of my life

[Anna H]

ahhhh... recall... like Huski, it is the bane of my life at the moment.

It is probably the most important command yet so many have dramas getting it 100%; and unless it is 100% the dog should not be offlead. If food isn't their 'thing' under distraction, you could try a favourite toy - I'm finding a Cuz ball is working really well to get attention as the sqeak is really enticing to my two. You could also try running away from them, this may make them chase you.

An e-collar is also an option worth investigating and most people have great results - you'll need a professional trainer to guide you on it's correct use tho. If you run a search in this training forum you'll come across some good threads.

Otherwise, keep practising with a long line until they understand that when you say 'come' it is non-negotiable. and NEVER call your dog to do something it doesn't like (like a bath or whatever) - go get your dog to do these things.

[BrunoBella]

Corvus is spot on

I use an ecollar for my two gsps and I had a 100% recall within a few months. We now go to the beach and anywhere with the dogs off lead all the time. I tried normal training first but my dogs are so bird focused it is hard to get them to come back all the time.

I got my ecollar from K9 Force (www.K9Force.net) and did a distance training course through there. It was magic. I am still impressed in the change it has made in my life.

[The Spotted Devil]

Recalls don't seem to come naturally to Dals either I have worked it from two angles:

Firstly, finding out what motivates my dog. In his case it's clearly food that wins hands down, although to begin with it had to be seriously high value such as raw chicken mince or steamed chicken. As he also loves to gallop flat out, I use that as a reward and release him to run free. When he was younger I would put the lead back on for a minute and give him a huge jackpot before releasing him again, to the point where if he sees me getting the lead out now he bolts back before I can call him

Secondly, having a consequence if he doesn't recall. He's a smart lad and, for us, using a non-reward marker ("Oh well") works nicely. I walk immediately over to him, say "oh well", snap the lead on and walk off (no sniffing etc allowed). The command basically means "you've lost your chance to have your reward - bad luck, mate!" It only takes a few minutes of boring on lead time before he starts offering me behaviours......then I let him off and he always recalls like a bullet after that.

I would take your dogs out separately to practice their recall as well. Some sort of retrieving toy and a good game with you might be a suitable reward. If they're not interested in food, you can switch to having them work for every bit of food they get. It tends to motivate some dogs pretty quickly then At the end of the day, you have to acknowledge that the big wide world is so full of delightful sights, scents and sounds so you have to work your butt off to make yourself so much more interesting!

[dee lee]

Secondly, having a consequence if he doesn't recall. He's a smart lad and, for us, using a non-reward marker ("Oh well") works nicely. I walk immediately over to him, say "oh well", snap the lead on and walk off (no sniffing etc allowed). The command basically means "you've lost your chance to have your reward - bad luck, mate!" It only takes a few minutes of boring on lead time before he starts offering me behaviours......then I let him off and he always recalls like a bullet after that.

If your dog is intent on not being near you how do you do this?

[The Spotted Devil]

Secondly, having a consequence if he doesn't recall. He's a smart lad and, for us, using a non-reward marker ("Oh well") works nicely. I walk immediately over to him, say "oh well", snap the lead on and walk off (no sniffing etc allowed). The command basically means "you've lost your chance to have your reward - bad luck, mate!" It only takes a few minutes of boring on lead time before he starts offering me behaviours......then I let him off and he always recalls like a bullet after that.

If your dog is intent on not being near you how do you do this?

It's not that he's intent on not being near me, it's just that his nose is on the ground and his ears have conveniently sealed He doesn't take off when he sees me march over - he looks at me with a sudden realisation that he's stuffed up and either waits where he is or bolts over to me enthusiastically in an attempt to right his wrong.....in the case of the latter I pet him as a reward for coming but no food as he didn't come the first time. It's a technique that I've developed over time as we have a pretty good understanding now and I've done a heck of lot of training with him. It wouldn't work for everybody but it works well for us My point is, there needs to be a consequence of some description if your dog, like mine, is more motivated to piss on something than come back for a food reward

ETA: I suspect it gets more complicated too, as in the beginning, I also rewarded Zig for simply giving me eye contact whilst having a free run. Constantly reinforcing this means he often just "checks in" visually - particularly helpful at the beach when it is windy and just a raised hand can bring him bolting back rather than trying to yell uselessly into the wind. I also use "c'mon" which means come this way but not necessarily to me and in your own time is fine. However, come means come. Now.

Edited January 24, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[pnsdc]

Quote TSD:

Secondly, having a consequence if he doesn't recall. He's a smart lad and, for us, using a non-reward marker ("Oh well") works nicely. I walk immediately over to him, say "oh well", snap the lead on and walk off (no sniffing etc allowed). The command basically means "you've lost your chance to have your reward - bad luck, mate!" It only takes a few minutes of boring on lead time before he starts offering me behaviours......then I let him off and he always recalls like a bullet after that.

Q: how do you start this, i mean how do i adjust my dog to this different type of command.. i put her onto the lead and then we????

[The Spotted Devil]

Quote TSD:

Secondly, having a consequence if he doesn't recall. He's a smart lad and, for us, using a non-reward marker ("Oh well") works nicely. I walk immediately over to him, say "oh well", snap the lead on and walk off (no sniffing etc allowed). The command basically means "you've lost your chance to have your reward - bad luck, mate!" It only takes a few minutes of boring on lead time before he starts offering me behaviours......then I let him off and he always recalls like a bullet after that.

Q: how do you start this, i mean how do i adjust my dog to this different type of command.. i put her onto the lead and then we????

It's something I use with Ziggy a lot. From memory I started with something really simple in the house like sitting/waiting before I opened a door to go through. For example, approach sliding door with dog off lead (so no physical corrections), ask dog to sit (or wait for offered sit if at this point of training), begin to open door, dog breaks in excitement (very common in young hyperactive breeds yet to learn self control ), calmly say "oh well" and shut the door. Repeat as necessary. When the dog is sitting/waiting nicely and door is open release with "OK" or similar and the dog is rewarded. The reason I don't use physical corrections when using a non-reward marker is that I want the command to be a fairly neutral one (although theoretically it's still negative).

Once the dog understands what it means you can apply it to other learning situations. Very useful as you want a dog to feel comfortable about experimenting when you are shaping behaviours using a clicker and doing obedience and you want to build confidence. Another example of this is the command "stay" - I've observed that some handlers inadvertently reward their dogs for breaking the stay by touching the dog (even during a 'correction' this can be reinforcing the behaviour) OR the dog doesn't comprehend 100% what the command means and thus loses confidence when corrected. For Zig, "oh well" not only means "you've stuffed up!" but "try again and get it right and you'll be rewarded".........plus if you say it in a light hearted voice it translates to your body language (which can really confuse a dog if you're feeling annoyed). A few months ago I was practising stand for exam with Zig at my agility club - not something we get to practice much as I train on my own most of the time. He's a very friendly, waggy dog and it's so hard for him to keep still. I asked the "judge" to approach Zig as per normal but withdraw the second he moved a paw. At the same time I said "oh well" and returned to Zig's side with no fuss followed by 'stand' and 'stay'. Repeat. Ziggy knew he'd messed up and you could see his brain ticking over trying to work out what to do when the "judge" approached. In very little time he was standing rock solid, I told him 'good' to let him know, then returned to his side, released, praised and jackpot of food.

I'm not sure that I've explained this really well - it's not something I really think about to write down.....more just watching what works and what doesn't. It might not suit everyone either - I have a dog that gives 99% of the people he meets the dog equivalent of "the finger" It has taken quite a bit of commitment to have him working with confidence and enthusiasm.

[saram]

sorry double post

Edited January 24, 2009 by saram

[saram]

Oh I'm so pleased someone pposted this - we are having BIG recall issues!

YP - thank you, I think you explained "oh well" perfectly! I love it - something I hadn't thought of before.

Another qu. When we are giving them "no other choice" what am I supposed to do - drag them?

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh I'm so pleased someone pposted this - we are having BIG recall issues!

YP - thank you, I think you explained "oh well" perfectly! I love it - something I hadn't thought of before.

Another qu. When we are giving them "no other choice" what am I supposed to do - drag them?

Do you mean on a long-line for a recall? First try making yourself THE most exciting thing in the whole wide world Call pup's name excitedly (you should definitely be training one at a time!) and run backwards. Even ignore the dog, crouch right down and pretend to find something of real interest on the ground - you'd be surprised how often the pup thinks he's missing out on something My Dally pays no heed to my OH so I've even had OH lie on his back on the grass like a dying bug.......I think that was more for my amusement though it did seem to work When pup does come over, don't make the mistake of just grabbing him! Give him a really yummy treat and play a game with him - ball, tug, chasey - whatever floats his boat. The problem is if you always FORCE the pup to come to you, they will make the decision to give you the finger once the long line is gone. If it is HIS decision to come to you when the long line is on, I find it easier to make the transition to off-lead. Just my experience

[saram]

Alrighty will try that! Thanks again

[The Spotted Devil]

And just one more thing.....at the end of the day, for us, it's really been about consistency and hard work. Zig has an off-leash run ~5 times a week and we do at least 6 recalls every time. Some with treat rewards, some without. On top of that I do a lot of other training with him...formal obedience practice 2-3 times per week and teaching new behaviours (clicker training with his dinner) at least 3-4 times per week. I try to keep the training fresh and varied and fun. In fact, we're off to do some now and he is whinging in anticipation as I've just prepared the treat bag

It's also worth noting that OH still can't let Zig off lead

[paddles]

I'm finding this all very interesting reading, I went out into the court this morning, with one dog at a time, and let them run on a bit, then recalled them, sophie came back quite happily each time (I've only had her a couple of weeks, and was/am quite apprehensive about letting her off lead) Fred however seemed more interested in sniffing, whatever he was sniffing. eventually coming, now I rewarded him when he came to me, and tried to resist standing there calling him repeatedly, even trying walking away from him, (Which strangely enough worked to a fair degree), now my question is, should I keep a long lead on him, and if I do, when he ignores me, should I give a tug on the lead?

In the past I have only used the long lead when the dogs/pups were young. I was taught to recall the dog with the long lead only on the odd occasion,as they soon learn when the lead is on or not. And fred certainly knows when it is on.

[The Spotted Devil]

The long line is handy to actually teach the command - do you think he really knows what "come" means? If he does and the court is a controlled area (i.e. no traffic dangers) this is when I would personally introduce the non-reward marker i.e. you don't want to come when called? Oh well, bad luck, lead goes on, walk around, soooo boring, let dog off and try again. You want to come to me? Wow - I have the best treats in the whole wide world (make sure they ARE the best - raw chicken mince is a winner here - and make sure the dog is HUNGRY!) and we are going to have a great fun game

As I said, this works for me but I'm sure there's other methods that might suit others better

ETA: With the command "come" you may have inadvertently taught him that it means "wander over this way, if you feel like it, sometime in the next half an hour...maybe....if you feel like it....or not" That's not his fault but yours and just means your dealing with a smart dog! So you might have to put the long line back on to re-teach that "come" means "get your butt to me ASAP and you'll get a most brilliant reward"

Edited January 24, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[SkySoaringMagpie]

You can even use releasing them again for another run as a reward.

I consciously do this a lot, especially when starting out. Our first dog would look up and scan the horizon when we called him back because recalls always meant "fun is over". We were really crueling ourselves. Now we do a lot of reward and release and the others don't scan the horizon for rabbits and dogs as soon as we call them

[Jibba]

I teach my dog sto pay attention to me at most times, by say when im walking ill yell out a command with a hand signal, they will never knwo when it is going to happen, but once they do the comman di make a huge big deal and they can go off and do what ever it is they want to do, also i dont do unnecessary talking, i only talk when its needed.

[wuffles]

Another one here having recall issues! I have a constant "fly-byer" that thinks "come" means "run to me then get distracted along the way"

Thanks The Spotted Devil, I am going to try teaching the NRM, starting with situations like at the door and see how that goes.

I have been struggling a little as my dog's motivation is not food or toys... it is walking or sniffing or running or playing or peeing I've yet to find something that he finds good enough to really make him want to work.