Fl:ow On Effect And How To Moderate It?

[DavidWW]

I am after a bit of advice from people experienced with multi dog households.

I have 2 bitches the same age 3 YO - although one is a bigger more dominant bitch and has assumed the dominant role between them. They have small confrontations at times - particularly when either may be in season - but nothing major - the hierarchy seems set.

However when I might have cause to reprimand the dominant bitch for any reason she now runs straight to the other girl and replicates this 'down the chain of command' so to speak. If I simply growl 'NOOO' at her - she will generally just 'muzzle' the other bitch in passing in a brief show of superiority. If however she has down something quite unacceptable and is firmly reprimanded she will often fly at the other bitch and really put her in her place.

I understand this is the normal hierarchal effect in a pack situation - the dominant bitch can't 'blame' me as pack leader so she takes it out on the subservient girl.

What I am wondering is if anyone else having encountered this situation has come up with some useful tips on managing it. These girls are kennelled separately alongside each other at night or when locked up and run together in the yard by day or around the farm when I have them out with me. They are in general great mates and sleep on the same bed at times and get along well.

This bigger bitch was recovered from an abusive home where she was not only poorly treated she was severely damaged with prong collars and beatings to try and make a schutzhund dog out of her. Because of this she was an extremely fearful dog when recovered so it has taken 2 years to return her to her normal outgoing friendly state of mind - and up until now I have only relied on voice, scruffing her firmly on either side of the neck and staring at her, or 'time out' in the kennel for any misdemeanours. When she is let out of the kennel again though she immediately feels the need to re-assert her dominance over the other bitch and this is just as likely to get a bit agro.

So does anyone have any experience with this behaviour and advice on ways to 'defuse' the situation? What I really need is a way to reprimand the dominant girl that will NOT be passed on and cause any potential issues! EASY RIGHT? <smile>

Thanks

David

[Nekhbet]

What are you reprimanding for?

Maybe you let her be a little too free in making up for her previous life. She now feels hard done by and right all the time. Have controlled interactions with them, if she goes to correct the other dog step in before she tries anything. My Malinois used to do the same thing, I told one dog off and she came in and nipped them on the face now if she even tries she gets an 'BAAAHH NO' and she backs off. I'm telling her, I've done the work you dont need to contribute thanks.

keep both dogs on the same plane. I dont have a specific 'heirachy' between mine, I treat everyone equally whether they like it or not. Same rules apply for all and I have managed to get rid of most of these problems. I would also desex any bitch you dont want to breed from NOW. If you dont want a complete lack of hormones you can ask to leave one ovary in but at least she wont be full blown hormonal dominant female. Be careful, two entire bitches can be a nasty combo if the other decides she's had enough of being picked on and doesnt see any other way of stopping it.

[speedy2]

two entire bitches can be a nasty combo if the other decides she's had enough of being picked on and doesnt see any other way of stopping it.

forget the entire bit - 2 bitches can be a problem! i had 2 neutered bitches with about 2 years age between them ... when the younger one decided to challenge for leadership in the older girl's old age, we had lots of hassles, blood etc.

speedy2

[Nekhbet]

through my own experimentation I've found desexing one and leaving another entire is easier to manage. I would still separate throughout season but you then tip the balance. One is not a cycling dog, the other is a full hormonal cow :rolleyes: just like in the wild. Saying that desexing a bossy bitch wont solve your problems.

Saying that cranky entire bitches can have ovarian cysts that create irritation and bad behavior. If you have an animal thats particularly bitchy all the time, especially in season, might pay to get it checked by a vet.

[corvus]

Penny is a little like this with our young boy, Kivi. It's a delicate situation and I've found that if I come down too hard on her it makes things worse. I've found the best results when I've quietly given Penny a bit more attention and a bit more exclusive time with me. It also helps when I try to equalise things so that Kivi doesn't get to do things that Penny would like to do if she was still physically able. Our situation is a bit different as Penny is 13 and arthritic and doesn't have much patience for pups, and I think it's more about jealousy than redirected frustration. Nonetheless, Penny gets put in isolation for a few minutes if she's snapping at Kivi for no reason. I don't think it makes much difference except that sometimes it makes her even more snappy. What does help is to see it when it starts happening, block her if I'm there, grump at her and/or put her out if I wasn't able to block, and when she's stopped her snarking give her a bit of time with us.

Maybe think about what the dominant bitch might be missing out on just in case it's a similar problem to ours? Or what she thinks she's missing out on. I think that it gets hard. Penny will wait 10 minutes for a chance to tell Kivi off, and I know my mother's dog will wait hours if he has to. The tension never goes away until he's had his chance to have his say, so to speak. Perhaps the answer to these problems is to try to avoid needing to tell the dominant dog off in the first place. Or tell them off in a less confrontational way. For example, instead of growling at her or staring at her, try just saying "out of it" or something in a quiet and relatively neutral tone, avoid the stares, and just move into her space and shoo her away from whatever she's doing. If Penny is being a right snot I can often resolve the situation by calling her over and getting her to sit and stay by my feet. It's sort of a win-win situation because she is next to me where she feels more secure and she's also in a position that doesn't allow her to cause trouble and if she thinks she wants to go cause trouble I can stop her without needing to grump or grab or stare at her.

My thought is that if she's turning the tension on another dog she's looking for a way to relieve her sense of tension, which means your corrections might be a bit too intense for her. Hard to believe when they are so mild, but the way I see it a dog shouldn't feel it necessary to pass on tension if the punishment is suitably low key. Even just averting the eyes and stepping sideways into her space rather than directly into it from the front can decrease that intensity. Worth a try?